These are emails send to imc-beirut during the debate about the exclusion of different people from the group in the spring of 2005. These emails had to be deleted from the list archives because one person addressed people with their full names against their wish. This is not the complete discussion: the rest is still in the archives. The names are here exchanged to cyber names.
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-beirut/2005-May/0510-7w.html
[Imc-beirut] Re: Saseen affirmation! and questions
Ghassan Makarem ghassan at riseup.net
Tue May 10 06:38:06 PDT 2005
· Previous message: [Imc-beirut] Re: Saseen affirmation! and questions
· Next message: [Imc-beirut] Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
· Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]
Please don't turn this into a silly sectarian fight. I do not care about the
problems Indymedia has with working with other groups or vice versa. Let the
SWP and the London autonomists deal with their own problems.
The question is whether the decision-making process is hindering the work of
IMC Beirut. Yes, our hidden agenda is to make the collective more
democratic. Live with that.
Anyway, I am not waiting for Imad or anyone else to evaluate my work or my
reperesentation of IMC Beirut on global lists. Asking for the global
moderation will not solve the problem since it is an issue with the global
collective as well. Looking at the majority of IMC sites, you can be sure
that the problems exist everywhere. I think that the reasons for that are:
1) The consensus decision-making process might work for a group of people
hiding away from society in a private "commune". Where everybody thinks the
same, i.e., they all share the same hatred of the working class and believe
that politics is just another fad to go through. It does not work when you
have clear goals you want to reach. It does not work if you want to respect
diversity (not the silly fascist identity-based diversity propagated by the
US left).
2) There is a sick mentality calling for the purity of the left. We saw that
when Ziad Sahhab was accused of treason. There are many examples from all
over the globe. The boycott movement was turned from an effective weapon to
fight US hegemony into a tool to purify the movement itself from people you
don't like. IMC, as a whole, suffers from the same mentality.
3) Some sects on the left believe that their struggle is against others in
the left who did not have the revelation of jugglers like Toni Negri.
Intrinsically, it is an issue of classism. It is also a result of weakness
due to the personification of politics.
Of course, I could go into a psychological analysis of some in IMC, but I
know they are a minority. A minority obsessed with control and power (such
as blue). After 60 years of the defeat of the Nazis, it seems that we
did not learn anything. The German connection is unfortunate but it makes
you wonder whether Europeans have really broken with their fascist past. I
think they did not. Of course, they are not calling for extermination, but,
for many of them, it is because it is not technically possible and not
necessarily because they have a moral (or material) obligation against it.
At a time when the rhetoric of the Lebanese opposition (all of it, since
they are the ones who insist that they are united) is rife with racisms and
bigotry, talk about not wanting to go into a Muslim area cannot be taken at
face value, especially when the same person has been insisting that IMC
Beirut covers the fascist gathering in Martyr Square and give it a voice.
But this is a minor detail that could have been solved if we had a workable
decision-making process and if some people in the collective did not have a
sacredness (is is the blond hair?) that Imad insists on defending in the
most partonizing of manners (I don't care really, if some like to be
partronized, it is their choice). Not to mention making undemocratic
decisions about who does what and what the strategy of the collective should
be.
Fascims is the replacement of class struggle with a struggle against a
certain identity or group. It is when you replace political struggle with
identity politics (such as what the right-wing of the feminist movement). It
is when you require a purity of terms, ideology, and lifestyle. Yes, such as
what is happening now in the autonomist collectives. IMC Beirut will not
become one, I promise.
Ghassan
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-beirut/2005-May/0512-6y.html
[Imc-beirut] Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
blue.pi blue.pi at so36.net
Thu May 12 01:00:13 PDT 2005
· Previous message: [Imc-beirut] Re: Saseen affirmation! and questions
· Next message: [Imc-beirut] Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
· Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]
These are the very same issues and accusations you brought forward on the
radical red and on the al yasari mailinglist. Several people have argued
them and proposed a serious discussion about them, but all these arguments
were ignored by you and Bassem. I also hear that you start the same
discussions on other mailinglists, again just accusing people instead of
listening to what they have to say. You are intelligent enough to know that
with this behavior you reach the opposite of what you claim you want. I very
much hope that you wake up soon and take time to think what it is exactly
that you want.
As for indymedia, I am requesting that you leave the group and be removed
from the mailinglist. You have crossed limits that are not tolerable anymore
in an indymedia group.
1. even though people have reminded you not to use abusive language, you are
getting worse in your insults. Now you don’t only call people fascists and
stalinists, but in your one but last email against me, you used the term
FUCK twice, which shows not only disrespect for me but for the group as a
whole.
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-beirut/2005-May/0509-7y.html
2. While one could assume that you used the terms fascist, anarcho-fascist
and stalinist as sort of random insults before, your reference to me now in
this last email and the Nazi past of Germany is not radnom name throwing at
all and clearly racist.
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-beirut/2005-May/0510-7w.html
3. The reference to Imad as a labdog with the explanation that this must be
because I am blonde is sexist. (in the same email)
4. It is not possible to argue with you and to come to any resolution
because you never read our explanations.
This proposal has a discussion period of two weeks. Because there has been
some confusion about consensus decision making, I want to remind everybody,
that vetoing is something they do in the UN Security Council. Unlike Bassem
and Ghassan have suggested here, it is not part of the consensus process we
have in indymedia.
Also: it has been suggested by Imad and Sara, but Ghassan dismissed the idea
as “going to the indymedia police”. I personally am not for involving
the globals because it will just slow things down, however, to be fair, I
also wanted to point out to Ghassan, that he himself also has the option to
bring this to imc-resolve or ask on imc-communication for a moderator in the
face of being excluded from the group.
blue
Ghassan Makarem writes:
>
Please don't turn this into a silly sectarian fight. I do not care about
>
the problems Indymedia has with working with other groups or vice versa.
>
Let the SWP and the London autonomists deal with their own problems.
>
>
The question is whether the decision-making process is hindering the work
>
of IMC Beirut. Yes, our hidden agenda is to make the collective more
>
democratic. Live with that.
>
>
Anyway, I am not waiting for Imad or anyone else to evaluate my work or my
>
reperesentation of IMC Beirut on global lists. Asking for the global
>
moderation will not solve the problem since it is an issue with the global
>
collective as well. Looking at the majority of IMC sites, you can be sure
>
that the problems exist everywhere. I think that the reasons for that are:
>
>
1) The consensus decision-making process might work for a group of people
>
hiding away from society in a private "commune". Where everybody thinks
>
the same, i.e., they all share the same hatred of the working class and
>
believe that politics is just another fad to go through. It does not work
>
when you have clear goals you want to reach. It does not work if you want
>
to respect diversity (not the silly fascist identity-based diversity
>
propagated by the US left).
>
>
2) There is a sick mentality calling for the purity of the left. We saw
>
that when Ziad Sahhab was accused of treason. There are many examples from
>
all over the globe. The boycott movement was turned from an effective
>
weapon to fight US hegemony into a tool to purify the movement itself from
>
people you don't like. IMC, as a whole, suffers from the same mentality.
>
>
3) Some sects on the left believe that their struggle is against others in
>
the left who did not have the revelation of jugglers like Toni Negri.
>
Intrinsically, it is an issue of classism. It is also a result of weakness
>
due to the personification of politics.
>
>
Of course, I could go into a psychological analysis of some in IMC, but I
>
know they are a minority. A minority obsessed with control and power (such
>
as blue). After 60 years of the defeat of the Nazis, it seems that
>
we did not learn anything. The German connection is unfortunate but it
>
makes you wonder whether Europeans have really broken with their fascist
>
past. I think they did not. Of course, they are not calling for
>
extermination, but, for many of them, it is because it is not technically
>
possible and not necessarily because they have a moral (or material)
>
obligation against it. At a time when the rhetoric of the Lebanese
>
opposition (all of it, since they are the ones who insist that they are
>
united) is rife with racisms and bigotry, talk about not wanting to go
>
into a Muslim area cannot be taken at face value, especially when the same
>
person has been insisting that IMC Beirut covers the fascist gathering in
>
Martyr Square and give it a voice.
>
>
But this is a minor detail that could have been solved if we had a
>
workable decision-making process and if some people in the collective did
>
not have a sacredness (is is the blond hair?) that Imad insists on
>
defending in the most partonizing of manners (I don't care really, if some
>
like to be partronized, it is their choice). Not to mention making
>
undemocratic decisions about who does what and what the strategy of the
>
collective should be.
>
>
Fascims is the replacement of class struggle with a struggle against a
>
certain identity or group. It is when you replace political struggle with
>
identity politics (such as what the right-wing of the feminist movement).
>
It is when you require a purity of terms, ideology, and lifestyle. Yes,
>
such as what is happening now in the autonomist collectives. IMC Beirut
>
will not become one, I promise.
>
>
Ghassan
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-beirut/2005-May/0512-ai.html
[Imc-beirut] Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
Ghassan Makarem ghassan at riseup.net
Thu May 12 04:25:47 PDT 2005
· Previous message: [Imc-beirut] Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
· Next message: [Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
· Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]
I am only accusing you blue. My comments are directed towards those
who think they own Indymedia and have absolutely no idea about alternative
media. In the meantime, I have been working on updating the site (rather
than barking orders to people).
Sorry, but I suggest that people ignore the request of blue. I had
requested the same, and Tamam reminded us that we have no right to do so. I
also request that Imad refrains on commenting on issues that he knows
nothing about.
I repeat that you have no right to exclude people or even ask them to leave.
I will not go to the global list since I know that many here do not agree
with you. Sorry, this type of exclusion does not work here.
Ghassan
Original Message -----
From: "blue.pi"
To:
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 10:00 AM
Subject: [Imc-beirut] Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
> These are the very same issues and accusations you brought forward on the
> radical red and on the al yasari mailinglist. Several people have argued
> them and proposed a serious discussion about them, but all these arguments
> were ignored by you and Bassem. I also hear that you start the same
> discussions on other mailinglists, again just accusing people instead of
> listening to what they have to say. You are intelligent enough to know
> that with this behavior you reach the opposite of what you claim you want.
> I very much hope that you wake up soon and take time to think what it is
> exactly that you want.
> As for indymedia, I am requesting that you leave the group and be removed
> from the mailinglist. You have crossed limits that are not tolerable
> anymore in an indymedia group.
> 1. even though people have reminded you not to use abusive language, you
> are getting worse in your insults. Now you don’t only call people fascists
> and stalinists, but in your one but last email against me, you used the
> term FUCK twice, which shows not only disrespect for me but for the group
> as a whole.
> http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-beirut/2005-May/0509-7y.html
> 2. While one could assume that you used the terms fascist, anarcho-fascist
> and stalinist as sort of random insults before, your reference to me now
> in this last email and the Nazi past of Germany is not radnom name
> throwing at all and clearly racist.
> http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-beirut/2005-May/0510-7w.html
> 3. The reference to Imad as a labdog with the explanation that this must
> be because I am blonde is sexist. (in the same email)
> 4. It is not possible to argue with you and to come to any resolution
> because you never read our explanations.
> This proposal has a discussion period of two weeks. Because there has been
> some confusion about consensus decision making, I want to remind
> everybody, that vetoing is something they do in the UN Security Council.
> Unlike Bassem and Ghassan have suggested here, it is not part of the
> consensus process we have in indymedia.
> Also: it has been suggested by Imad and Sara, but Ghassan dismissed the
> idea as “going to the indymedia police”. I personally am not for involving
> the globals because it will just slow things down, however, to be fair, I
> also wanted to point out to Ghassan, that he himself also has the option
> to bring this to imc-resolve or ask on imc-communication for a moderator
> in the face of being excluded from the group.
> blue
>
> Ghassan Makarem writes:
> > Please don't turn this into a silly sectarian fight. I do not care about
> > the problems Indymedia has with working with other groups or vice versa.
> > Let the SWP and the London autonomists deal with their own problems. The
> > question is whether the decision-making process is hindering the work of
> > IMC Beirut. Yes, our hidden agenda is to make the collective more
> > democratic. Live with that. Anyway, I am not waiting for Imad or anyone
> > else to evaluate my work or my reperesentation of IMC Beirut on global
> > lists. Asking for the global moderation will not solve the problem since
> > it is an issue with the global collective as well. Looking at the
> > majority of IMC sites, you can be sure that the problems exist
> > everywhere. I think that the reasons for that are: 1) The consensus
> > decision-making process might work for a group of people hiding away from
> > society in a private "commune". Where everybody thinks the same, i.e.,
> > they all share the same hatred of the working class and believe that
> > politics is just another fad to go through. It does not work when you
> > have clear goals you want to reach. It does not work if you want to
> > respect diversity (not the silly fascist identity-based diversity
> > propagated by the US left). 2) There is a sick mentality calling for the
> > purity of the left. We saw that when Ziad Sahhab was accused of treason.
> > There are many examples from all over the globe. The boycott movement was
> > turned from an effective weapon to fight US hegemony into a tool to
> > purify the movement itself from people you don't like. IMC, as a whole,
> > suffers from the same mentality. 3) Some sects on the left believe that
> > their struggle is against others in the left who did not have the
> > revelation of jugglers like Toni Negri. Intrinsically, it is an issue of
> > classism. It is also a result of weakness due to the personification of
> > politics. Of course, I could go into a psychological analysis of some in
> > IMC, but I know they are a minority. A minority obsessed with control and
> > power (such as blue). After 60 years of the defeat of the Nazis,
> > it seems that we did not learn anything. The German connection is
> > unfortunate but it makes you wonder whether Europeans have really broken
> > with their fascist past. I think they did not. Of course, they are not
> > calling for extermination, but, for many of them, it is because it is not
> > technically possible and not necessarily because they have a moral (or
> > material) obligation against it. At a time when the rhetoric of the
> > Lebanese opposition (all of it, since they are the ones who insist that
> > they are united) is rife with racisms and bigotry, talk about not wanting
> > to go into a Muslim area cannot be taken at face value, especially when
> > the same person has been insisting that IMC Beirut covers the fascist
> > gathering in Martyr Square and give it a voice. But this is a minor
> > detail that could have been solved if we had a workable decision-making
> > process and if some people in the collective did not have a sacredness
> > (is is the blond hair?) that Imad insists on defending in the most
> > partonizing of manners (I don't care really, if some like to be
> > partronized, it is their choice). Not to mention making undemocratic
> > decisions about who does what and what the strategy of the collective
> > should be. Fascims is the replacement of class struggle with a struggle
> > against a certain identity or group. It is when you replace political
> > struggle with identity politics (such as what the right-wing of the
> > feminist movement). It is when you require a purity of terms, ideology,
> > and lifestyle. Yes, such as what is happening now in the autonomist
> > collectives. IMC Beirut will not become one, I promise. Ghassan
> > ___________________________________________
> > Imc-beirut mailing list
> > Imc-beirut at lists.indymedia.org
> > http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/imc-beirut
>
>
>
> Get pgp key for bluepee3 at yahoo.com at www.keyserver.net
> ___________________________________________
> Imc-beirut mailing list
> Imc-beirut at lists.indymedia.org
> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/imc-beirut
>
>
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-beirut/2005-May/0514-ne.html
[Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
blue.pi blue.pi at so36.net
Sat May 14 03:14:31 PDT 2005
· Previous message: [Imc-beirut] Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
· Next message: [Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
· Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]
I will request that all emails that include my full name will be removed
from the list archives. This is a strong violation of my privacy and can be
considered as working into the hands of police and secret service (as you
know indymedia is persecuted in Europe). So please stop using my last name
because these emails will be removed and can therefore not referred to later
on. This also effects Imad, but I believe it concerns the same emails. But
Imad, if you wish that I ask for more emails to be removed because of this
reason please tell me.
Ghassan, and Tamam, where do you take from that we don't have the right to
request Ghassan's removal from this list and the group. As far as the list
is concerned Ghassan fullfills all the qualities of a troll right now with
all those insults he is throwing. So if he wouldn't be part of the group, we
wouldn't even need a discussion.
Btw. I don't give commands, but the instructions on the bulletin board in
the admin are part of the workshop. I don't know if you have ever given a
workshop in your life but if you have you know that it's not only about
showing people but about instructing them to do things themselves.
blue
Ghassan Makarem writes:
> I am only accusing you blue. My comments are directed towards
> those who think they own Indymedia and have absolutely no idea about
> alternative media. In the meantime, I have been working on updating the
> site (rather than barking orders to people).
>
> Sorry, but I suggest that people ignore the request of blue. I
> had requested the same, and Tamam reminded us that we have no right to do
> so. I also request that Imad refrains on commenting on issues that he
> knows nothing about.
>
> I repeat that you have no right to exclude people or even ask them to
> leave.
>
> I will not go to the global list since I know that many here do not agree
> with you. Sorry, this type of exclusion does not work here.
>
> Ghassan
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "blue.pi"
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 10:00 AM
> Subject: [Imc-beirut] Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
>
>
> > These are the very same issues and accusations you brought forward on the
> > radical red and on the al yasari mailinglist. Several people have argued
> > them and proposed a serious discussion about them, but all these
> > arguments were ignored by you and Bassem. I also hear that you start the
> > same discussions on other mailinglists, again just accusing people
> > instead of listening to what they have to say. You are intelligent enough
> > to know that with this behavior you reach the opposite of what you claim
> > you want. I very much hope that you wake up soon and take time to think
> > what it is exactly that you want.
> > As for indymedia, I am requesting that you leave the group and be removed
> > from the mailinglist. You have crossed limits that are not tolerable
> > anymore in an indymedia group.
> > 1. even though people have reminded you not to use abusive language, you
> > are getting worse in your insults. Now you don’t only call people
> > fascists and stalinists, but in your one but last email against me, you
> > used the term FUCK twice, which shows not only disrespect for me but for
> > the group as a whole.
> > http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-beirut/2005-May/0509-7y.html
> > 2. While one could assume that you used the terms fascist,
> > anarcho-fascist and stalinist as sort of random insults before, your
> > reference to me now in this last email and the Nazi past of Germany is
> > not radnom name throwing at all and clearly racist.
> > http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-beirut/2005-May/0510-7w.html
> > 3. The reference to Imad as a labdog with the explanation that this must
> > be because I am blonde is sexist. (in the same email)
> > 4. It is not possible to argue with you and to come to any resolution
> > because you never read our explanations.
> > This proposal has a discussion period of two weeks. Because there has
> > been some confusion about consensus decision making, I want to remind
> > everybody, that vetoing is something they do in the UN Security Council.
> > Unlike Bassem and Ghassan have suggested here, it is not part of the
> > consensus process we have in indymedia.
> > Also: it has been suggested by Imad and Sara, but Ghassan dismissed the
> > idea as “going to the indymedia police”. I personally am not for
> > involving the globals because it will just slow things down, however, to
> > be fair, I also wanted to point out to Ghassan, that he himself also has
> > the option to bring this to imc-resolve or ask on imc-communication for a
> > moderator in the face of being excluded from the group.
> > blue
> >
> > Ghassan Makarem writes:
> >> Please don't turn this into a silly sectarian fight. I do not care about
> >> the problems Indymedia has with working with other groups or vice versa.
> >> Let the SWP and the London autonomists deal with their own problems. The
> >> question is whether the decision-making process is hindering the work of
> >> IMC Beirut. Yes, our hidden agenda is to make the collective more
> >> democratic. Live with that. Anyway, I am not waiting for Imad or anyone
> >> else to evaluate my work or my reperesentation of IMC Beirut on global
> >> lists. Asking for the global moderation will not solve the problem since
> >> it is an issue with the global collective as well. Looking at the
> >> majority of IMC sites, you can be sure that the problems exist
> >> everywhere. I think that the reasons for that are: 1) The consensus
> >> decision-making process might work for a group of people hiding away
> >> from society in a private "commune". Where everybody thinks the same,
> >> i.e., they all share the same hatred of the working class and believe
> >> that politics is just another fad to go through. It does not work when
> >> you have clear goals you want to reach. It does not work if you want to
> >> respect diversity (not the silly fascist identity-based diversity
> >> propagated by the US left). 2) There is a sick mentality calling for the
> >> purity of the left. We saw that when Ziad Sahhab was accused of treason.
> >> There are many examples from all over the globe. The boycott movement
> >> was turned from an effective weapon to fight US hegemony into a tool to
> >> purify the movement itself from people you don't like. IMC, as a whole,
> >> suffers from the same mentality. 3) Some sects on the left believe that
> >> their struggle is against others in the left who did not have the
> >> revelation of jugglers like Toni Negri. Intrinsically, it is an issue of
> >> classism. It is also a result of weakness due to the personification of
> >> politics. Of course, I could go into a psychological analysis of some in
> >> IMC, but I know they are a minority. A minority obsessed with control
> >> and power (such as Blue). After 60 years of the defeat of the
> >> Nazis, it seems that we did not learn anything. The German connection is
> >> unfortunate but it makes you wonder whether Europeans have really broken
> >> with their fascist past. I think they did not. Of course, they are not
> >> calling for extermination, but, for many of them, it is because it is
> >> not technically possible and not necessarily because they have a moral
> >> (or material) obligation against it. At a time when the rhetoric of the
> >> Lebanese opposition (all of it, since they are the ones who insist that
> >> they are united) is rife with racisms and bigotry, talk about not
> >> wanting to go into a Muslim area cannot be taken at face value,
> >> especially when the same person has been insisting that IMC Beirut
> >> covers the fascist gathering in Martyr Square and give it a voice. But
> >> this is a minor detail that could have been solved if we had a workable
> >> decision-making process and if some people in the collective did not
> >> have a sacredness (is is the blond hair?) that Imad insists on defending
> >> in the most partonizing of manners (I don't care really, if some like to
> >> be partronized, it is their choice). Not to mention making undemocratic
> >> decisions about who does what and what the strategy of the collective
> >> should be. Fascims is the replacement of class struggle with a struggle
> >> against a certain identity or group. It is when you replace political
> >> struggle with identity politics (such as what the right-wing of the
> >> feminist movement). It is when you require a purity of terms, ideology,
> >> and lifestyle. Yes, such as what is happening now in the autonomist
> >> collectives. IMC Beirut will not become one, I promise. Ghassan
> >> ___________________________________________
> >> Imc-beirut mailing list
> >> Imc-beirut at lists.indymedia.org
> >> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/imc-beirut
> >
> >
> >
> > Get pgp key for bluepee3 at yahoo.com at www.keyserver.net
> > ___________________________________________
> > Imc-beirut mailing list
> > Imc-beirut at lists.indymedia.org
> > http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/imc-beirut
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.8 - Release Date: 5/10/2005
> >
>
> ___________________________________________
> Imc-beirut mailing list
> Imc-beirut at lists.indymedia.org
> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/imc-beirut
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-beirut/2005-May/0514-ir.html
[Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
Ghassan Makarem ghassan at riseup.net
Sat May 14 05:09:45 PDT 2005
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To be clear, I had promised Tamam not to reply anymore because my replies
are being used for the purpose of a purge. But I cannot accept that Hannah
calls me a "troll". If Sonya, Afamia, Raida, Mo, Imad, Sara etc. accept
that, I will be taking other measures.
It is very clear that the issue is not language. It is a political issue
that started last Summer when some people in the radicalred collective did
not want to go to the Anti-War conference and began a series of attacks
against those who wanted to. If you remember, this led to the breakup of
that collective. Two groups were formed: Autonomia and ISG in the hope that
people can sit and agree on their positions then look into ways of
collaborating like we had done for the past 5 years.
Unfortunately, Hannah relations with an employee of the US state department
in addition to the ideological purge who do not agree with a certain brand
of leftism has meant that this became impossible.
Now she wants to remove the emails that include the discussion. This is pure
censorship and please don't give me the excuse of Indymedia being persecuted
in europe. Your parent, Hannah, are officials of the German socialist party,
they will help you out, don't worry. This security thing is quite surreal. I
use my real name and I am in Lebanon. I wrote against the Army, the Syrians,
the Americans, etc. We are not stupid to believe that you want them removed
because they contain your name.
Stop using these excuses for censorship.
On another note, I AM IN BEIRUT and I am a member of the editorial. You did
not even bother to give me the password although I was working on the Syrian
workers feature.
I believe that this is also political. I remeber your insiting that we
become part of the fascist camp in Martyr Square. The same camp that
harbored fascists who are attacking the Syrian workers. You have been
discussing these issues with an employee of the US state department. This
reminds me of when Raida brought the Moukhabarat to the screening of the Hay
El Sellom film, putting everybody's life in jeopardy.
You come from Europe, here we all know that these types of excuse for purges
and censorship. All this talk about language is to hide the fact that there
are political issues that Hannah does not want to be discussed.
You will try to remove me from the list, but I know that this mentality will
destroy Indymedia and all that we have been working on for years.
And please stop your partonizing. I do not need a European to come teach me
what to do. In a workshop or in another manner. This is disgusting.
I request again that Blue leaves Indymedia immediately. The good
news that she will leaving the country soon. GOOD RIDDANCE.
Ghassan
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-beirut/2005-May/0514-c4.html
[Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
Saseen la_elaha at hotmail.com
Sat May 14 04:27:36 PDT 2005
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i agree with ghassan that the reaon hannah is giving for deleting the emails
is not convincing, as he said, we live in a way more oppressive state and we
use real names, plus, no one in europe has been arrested or even contacted
by any officials yet, maybe except in cypress as far as i know, and i also
believe for the sake of transperancy that we all hold dear, no emails of
this disscussion should be deleted, i'm sure they will prove very usefull in
the future.
ghassan can u please clarify your accusation of hannah's connection with the
state department? it's a very seriuose allegation. and as i still trust you
personly, though i dissagree with what you have been doing on the list, i
ask you please clarify what you said about this issue.
question for who ever knows: is there a suspension option? what i mean, if
someone's involvment can be suspended until things are resolved, i would
prefer such an option. i think bassim made up his mind about not being part
of indymedia, but it is painfull for me that things get to this level. i
know it's not a charecter test, but even though ghassan has been very
disruptive in the past period, for me, he has proven to be a very trust
worthy and committed fighter in the struggle wich lets not forget we are all
part of it..
i can't help but think how unfortunate all this will be 6 months from now.
saseen jamil kawzally mother saide tahan born taalabaya and resident of
beirut.
Original Message -----
From: "Ghassan Makarem"
To:
Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 5:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
> To be clear, I had promised Tamam not to reply anymore because my replies
> are being used for the purpose of a purge. But I cannot accept that Hannah
> calls me a "troll". If Sonya, Afamia, Raida, Mo, Imad, Sara etc. accept
> that, I will be taking other measures.
>
> It is very clear that the issue is not language. It is a political issue
> that started last Summer when some people in the radicalred collective did
> not want to go to the Anti-War conference and began a series of attacks
> against those who wanted to. If you remember, this led to the breakup of
> that collective. Two groups were formed: Autonomia and ISG in the hope
> that people can sit and agree on their positions then look into ways of
> collaborating like we had done for the past 5 years.
>
> Unfortunately, Hannah relations with an employee of the US state
> department in addition to the ideological purge who do not agree with a
> certain brand of leftism has meant that this became impossible.
>
> Now she wants to remove the emails that include the discussion. This is
> pure censorship and please don't give me the excuse of Indymedia being
> persecuted in europe. Your parent, Hannah, are officials of the German
> socialist party, they will help you out, don't worry. This security thing
> is quite surreal. I use my real name and I am in Lebanon. I wrote against
> the Army, the Syrians, the Americans, etc. We are not stupid to believe
> that you want them removed because they contain your name.
>
> Stop using these excuses for censorship.
>
> On another note, I AM IN BEIRUT and I am a member of the editorial. You
> did not even bother to give me the password although I was working on the
> Syrian workers feature.
>
> I believe that this is also political. I remeber your insiting that we
> become part of the fascist camp in Martyr Square. The same camp that
> harbored fascists who are attacking the Syrian workers. You have been
> discussing these issues with an employee of the US state department. This
> reminds me of when Raida brought the Moukhabarat to the screening of the
> Hay El Sellom film, putting everybody's life in jeopardy.
>
> You come from Europe, here we all know that these types of excuse for
> purges and censorship. All this talk about language is to hide the fact
> that there are political issues that Hannah does not want to be discussed.
>
> You will try to remove me from the list, but I know that this mentality
> will destroy Indymedia and all that we have been working on for years.
>
> And please stop your partonizing. I do not need a European to come teach
> me what to do. In a workshop or in another manner. This is disgusting.
>
> I request again that Blue leaves Indymedia immediately. The good
> news that she will leaving the country soon. GOOD RIDDANCE.
>
> Ghassan
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-beirut/2005-May/0514-1c.html
[Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
blue.pi blue.pi at so36.net
Sat May 14 04:54:43 PDT 2005
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Ok. let me elaborate a but, even though as I said, it doesn't matter whether
I am paranoid or not. It is a general practice in indymedia that such emails
are deleted, mostly it happens when people accidently send from an account
that has their name on it. Please check with listwork.
Anyhow, in several European states indymedia is listed as a group of the
extreme left. The dossiers and reports that say so are publicly available
(which probably makes the difference to a state like Lebanon). Now, the
secret service can give information to employers about activists in
extremist groups if they see a public threat (this is part of anti-terrorism
legismlation passed after Sep 11). This is e.g. the case if you work for any
public institution. I am majorly affected by this, because a large part of
the media is publicly owned. But as you can imagine in a welfare state like
Germany also many other jobs are relying on public money. On top of this, it
has been uncovered before e.g. by the biggest German news magazine Der
Spiegel (so not some paranoid leftists) that the secret service also gives
such information illegally to private employers.
blue
Saseen writes:
> i agree with ghassan that the reaon hannah is giving for deleting the
> emails is not convincing, as he said, we live in a way more oppressive
> state and we use real names, plus, no one in europe has been arrested or
> even contacted by any officials yet, maybe except in cypress as far as i
> know, and i also believe for the sake of transperancy that we all hold
> dear, no emails of this disscussion should be deleted, i'm sure they will
> prove very usefull in the future.
>
> ghassan can u please clarify your accusation of hannah's connection with
> the state department? it's a very seriuose allegation. and as i still
> trust you personly, though i dissagree with what you have been doing on
> the list, i ask you please clarify what you said about this issue.
>
> question for who ever knows: is there a suspension option? what i mean, if
> someone's involvment can be suspended until things are resolved, i would
> prefer such an option. i think bassim made up his mind about not being
> part of indymedia, but it is painfull for me that things get to this
> level. i know it's not a charecter test, but even though ghassan has been
> very disruptive in the past period, for me, he has proven to be a very
> trust worthy and committed fighter in the struggle wich lets not forget we
> are all part of it..
> i can't help but think how unfortunate all this will be 6 months from now.
>
> saseen jamil kawzally mother saide tahan born taalabaya and resident of
> beirut.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ghassan Makarem"
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 5:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
>
>
> > To be clear, I had promised Tamam not to reply anymore because my replies
> > are being used for the purpose of a purge. But I cannot accept that
> > Hannah calls me a "troll". If Sonya, Afamia, Raida, Mo, Imad, Sara etc.
> > accept that, I will be taking other measures.
> >
> > It is very clear that the issue is not language. It is a political issue
> > that started last Summer when some people in the radicalred collective
> > did not want to go to the Anti-War conference and began a series of
> > attacks against those who wanted to. If you remember, this led to the
> > breakup of that collective. Two groups were formed: Autonomia and ISG in
> > the hope that people can sit and agree on their positions then look into
> > ways of collaborating like we had done for the past 5 years.
> >
> > Unfortunately, Hannah relations with an employee of the US state
> > department in addition to the ideological purge who do not agree with a
> > certain brand of leftism has meant that this became impossible.
> >
> > Now she wants to remove the emails that include the discussion. This is
> > pure censorship and please don't give me the excuse of Indymedia being
> > persecuted in europe. Your parent, Hannah, are officials of the German
> > socialist party, they will help you out, don't worry. This security thing
> > is quite surreal. I use my real name and I am in Lebanon. I wrote against
> > the Army, the Syrians, the Americans, etc. We are not stupid to believe
> > that you want them removed because they contain your name.
> >
> > Stop using these excuses for censorship.
> >
> > On another note, I AM IN BEIRUT and I am a member of the editorial. You
> > did not even bother to give me the password although I was working on the
> > Syrian workers feature.
> >
> > I believe that this is also political. I remeber your insiting that we
> > become part of the fascist camp in Martyr Square. The same camp that
> > harbored fascists who are attacking the Syrian workers. You have been
> > discussing these issues with an employee of the US state department. This
> > reminds me of when Raida brought the Moukhabarat to the screening of the
> > Hay El Sellom film, putting everybody's life in jeopardy.
> >
> > You come from Europe, here we all know that these types of excuse for
> > purges and censorship. All this talk about language is to hide the fact
> > that there are political issues that Hannah does not want to be
> > discussed.
> >
> > You will try to remove me from the list, but I know that this mentality
> > will destroy Indymedia and all that we have been working on for years.
> >
> > And please stop your partonizing. I do not need a European to come teach
> > me what to do. In a workshop or in another manner. This is disgusting.
> >
> > I request again that Blue leaves Indymedia immediately. The good
> > news that she will leaving the country soon. GOOD RIDDANCE.
> >
> > Ghassan
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-beirut/2005-May/0514-g6.html
[Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
raida at riseup.net raida at riseup.net
Sat May 14 05:24:22 PDT 2005
· Previous message: [Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
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How nice, your accusation for me bringing secret agents to the screening
of the IMC Beirut documentary on the Hay El Sellum is stupid and worth no
reply yet for the archive i am replying.
This screening was an open one and this person a journalist at Annahar
newspaper who was kidnapped by the anti-workers Hezbollah and threatned by
the Lebanese secret agents before and this is all i know about him was
there by himself just like others. if i brought him this means i am
affiliated with the secret agents too ... bravo WHAT IS NEXT?
Raida
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ghassan Makarem"
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 5:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
>
>
> > To be clear, I had promised Tamam not to reply anymore because my
> > replies
> > are being used for the purpose of a purge. But I cannot accept that
> > Hannah
> > calls me a "troll". If Sonya, Afamia, Raida, Mo, Imad, Sara etc. accept
> > that, I will be taking other measures.
> >
> > It is very clear that the issue is not language. It is a political issue
> > that started last Summer when some people in the radicalred collective
> > did
> > not want to go to the Anti-War conference and began a series of attacks
> > against those who wanted to. If you remember, this led to the breakup of
> > that collective. Two groups were formed: Autonomia and ISG in the hope
> > that people can sit and agree on their positions then look into ways of
> > collaborating like we had done for the past 5 years.
> >
> > Unfortunately, Hannah relations with an employee of the US state
> > department in addition to the ideological purge who do not agree with a
> > certain brand of leftism has meant that this became impossible.
> >
> > Now she wants to remove the emails that include the discussion. This is
> > pure censorship and please don't give me the excuse of Indymedia being
> > persecuted in europe. Your parent, Hannah, are officials of the German
> > socialist party, they will help you out, don't worry. This security
> > thing
> > is quite surreal. I use my real name and I am in Lebanon. I wrote
> > against
> > the Army, the Syrians, the Americans, etc. We are not stupid to believe
> > that you want them removed because they contain your name.
> >
> > Stop using these excuses for censorship.
> >
> > On another note, I AM IN BEIRUT and I am a member of the editorial. You
> > did not even bother to give me the password although I was working on
> > the
> > Syrian workers feature.
> >
> > I believe that this is also political. I remeber your insiting that we
> > become part of the fascist camp in Martyr Square. The same camp that
> > harbored fascists who are attacking the Syrian workers. You have been
> > discussing these issues with an employee of the US state department.
> > This
> > reminds me of when Raida brought the Moukhabarat to the screening of the
> > Hay El Sellom film, putting everybody's life in jeopardy.
> >
> > You come from Europe, here we all know that these types of excuse for
> > purges and censorship. All this talk about language is to hide the fact
> > that there are political issues that Hannah does not want to be
> > discussed.
> >
> > You will try to remove me from the list, but I know that this mentality
> > will destroy Indymedia and all that we have been working on for years.
> >
> > And please stop your partonizing. I do not need a European to come teach
> > me what to do. In a workshop or in another manner. This is disgusting.
> >
> > I request again that Blue leaves Indymedia immediately. The
> > good
> > news that she will leaving the country soon. GOOD RIDDANCE.
> >
> > Ghassan
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-beirut/2005-May/0514-j4.html
[Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
Saseen la_elaha at hotmail.com
Sat May 14 05:55:46 PDT 2005
· Previous message: [Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
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though out of context, but i am willing to tell people in person how we know
that this journalist works for moukhabarat el jeish specifly...and how the
next day after the screening a copy of our film was delivered to mudiriyatt
al tawjih, people who were arround at that time must remember me telling
them that i recieved word that this happenned.
but i don't see it's relivance now. and guys this is turning into a full
time job, not that i don't need one, but it does not pay.
Original Message -----
From:
To: "Saseen"
Cc: "Ghassan Makarem" ;
Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 5:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
>
> How nice, your accusation for me bringing secret agents to the screening
> of the IMC Beirut documentary on the Hay El Sellum is stupid and worth no
> reply yet for the archive i am replying.
>
> This screening was an open one and this person a journalist at Annahar
> newspaper who was kidnapped by the anti-workers Hezbollah and threatned by
> the Lebanese secret agents before and this is all i know about him was
> there by himself just like others. if i brought him this means i am
> affiliated with the secret agents too ... bravo WHAT IS NEXT?
>
> Raida
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ghassan Makarem"
> > To:
> > Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 5:09 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
> >
> >
> >> To be clear, I had promised Tamam not to reply anymore because my
> >> replies
> >> are being used for the purpose of a purge. But I cannot accept that
> >> Hannah
> >> calls me a "troll". If Sonya, Afamia, Raida, Mo, Imad, Sara etc. accept
> >> that, I will be taking other measures.
> >>
> >> It is very clear that the issue is not language. It is a political issue
> >> that started last Summer when some people in the radicalred collective
> >> did
> >> not want to go to the Anti-War conference and began a series of attacks
> >> against those who wanted to. If you remember, this led to the breakup of
> >> that collective. Two groups were formed: Autonomia and ISG in the hope
> >> that people can sit and agree on their positions then look into ways of
> >> collaborating like we had done for the past 5 years.
> >>
> >> Unfortunately, Hannah relations with an employee of the US state
> >> department in addition to the ideological purge who do not agree with a
> >> certain brand of leftism has meant that this became impossible.
> >>
> >> Now she wants to remove the emails that include the discussion. This is
> >> pure censorship and please don't give me the excuse of Indymedia being
> >> persecuted in europe. Your parent, Hannah, are officials of the German
> >> socialist party, they will help you out, don't worry. This security
> >> thing
> >> is quite surreal. I use my real name and I am in Lebanon. I wrote
> >> against
> >> the Army, the Syrians, the Americans, etc. We are not stupid to believe
> >> that you want them removed because they contain your name.
> >>
> >> Stop using these excuses for censorship.
> >>
> >> On another note, I AM IN BEIRUT and I am a member of the editorial. You
> >> did not even bother to give me the password although I was working on
> >> the
> >> Syrian workers feature.
> >>
> >> I believe that this is also political. I remeber your insiting that we
> >> become part of the fascist camp in Martyr Square. The same camp that
> >> harbored fascists who are attacking the Syrian workers. You have been
> >> discussing these issues with an employee of the US state department.
> >> This
> >> reminds me of when Raida brought the Moukhabarat to the screening of the
> >> Hay El Sellom film, putting everybody's life in jeopardy.
> >>
> >> You come from Europe, here we all know that these types of excuse for
> >> purges and censorship. All this talk about language is to hide the fact
> >> that there are political issues that Hannah does not want to be
> >> discussed.
> >>
> >> You will try to remove me from the list, but I know that this mentality
> >> will destroy Indymedia and all that we have been working on for years.
> >>
> >> And please stop your partonizing. I do not need a European to come teach
> >> me what to do. In a workshop or in another manner. This is disgusting.
> >>
> >> I request again that Blue leaves Indymedia immediately. The
> >> good
> >> news that she will leaving the country soon. GOOD RIDDANCE.
> >>
> >> Ghassan
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-beirut/2005-May/0516-ow.html
[Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
raida at riseup.net raida at riseup.net
Sun May 15 22:50:23 PDT 2005
· Previous message: [Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
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will, this guy being moukhabarat is something obviously you know about and
not me, anyhow, i repeat that he attended the screening by himself
> though out of context, but i am willing to tell people in person how we
> know
> that this journalist works for moukhabarat el jeish specifly...and how the
> next day after the screening a copy of our film was delivered to
> mudiriyatt
> al tawjih, people who were arround at that time must remember me telling
> them that i recieved word that this happenned.
>
> but i don't see it's relivance now. and guys this is turning into a full
> time job, not that i don't need one, but it does not pay.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> To: "Saseen"
> Cc: "Ghassan Makarem" ;
>
> Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 5:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
>
>
> >
> > How nice, your accusation for me bringing secret agents to the screening
> > of the IMC Beirut documentary on the Hay El Sellum is stupid and worth
> > no
> > reply yet for the archive i am replying.
> >
> > This screening was an open one and this person a journalist at Annahar
> > newspaper who was kidnapped by the anti-workers Hezbollah and threatned
> > by
> > the Lebanese secret agents before and this is all i know about him was
> > there by himself just like others. if i brought him this means i am
> > affiliated with the secret agents too ... bravo WHAT IS NEXT?
> >
> > Raida
> >
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Ghassan Makarem"
> >> To:
> >> Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 5:09 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
> >>
> >>
> >>> To be clear, I had promised Tamam not to reply anymore because my
> >>> replies
> >>> are being used for the purpose of a purge. But I cannot accept that
> >>> Hannah
> >>> calls me a "troll". If Sonya, Afamia, Raida, Mo, Imad, Sara etc.
> >>> accept
> >>> that, I will be taking other measures.
> >>>
> >>> It is very clear that the issue is not language. It is a political
> >>> issue
> >>> that started last Summer when some people in the radicalred collective
> >>> did
> >>> not want to go to the Anti-War conference and began a series of
> >>> attacks
> >>> against those who wanted to. If you remember, this led to the breakup
> >>> of
> >>> that collective. Two groups were formed: Autonomia and ISG in the hope
> >>> that people can sit and agree on their positions then look into ways
> >>> of
> >>> collaborating like we had done for the past 5 years.
> >>>
> >>> Unfortunately, Hannah relations with an employee of the US state
> >>> department in addition to the ideological purge who do not agree with
> >>> a
> >>> certain brand of leftism has meant that this became impossible.
> >>>
> >>> Now she wants to remove the emails that include the discussion. This
> >>> is
> >>> pure censorship and please don't give me the excuse of Indymedia being
> >>> persecuted in europe. Your parent, Hannah, are officials of the German
> >>> socialist party, they will help you out, don't worry. This security
> >>> thing
> >>> is quite surreal. I use my real name and I am in Lebanon. I wrote
> >>> against
> >>> the Army, the Syrians, the Americans, etc. We are not stupid to
> >>> believe
> >>> that you want them removed because they contain your name.
> >>>
> >>> Stop using these excuses for censorship.
> >>>
> >>> On another note, I AM IN BEIRUT and I am a member of the editorial.
> >>> You
> >>> did not even bother to give me the password although I was working on
> >>> the
> >>> Syrian workers feature.
> >>>
> >>> I believe that this is also political. I remeber your insiting that we
> >>> become part of the fascist camp in Martyr Square. The same camp that
> >>> harbored fascists who are attacking the Syrian workers. You have been
> >>> discussing these issues with an employee of the US state department.
> >>> This
> >>> reminds me of when Raida brought the Moukhabarat to the screening of
> >>> the
> >>> Hay El Sellom film, putting everybody's life in jeopardy.
> >>>
> >>> You come from Europe, here we all know that these types of excuse for
> >>> purges and censorship. All this talk about language is to hide the
> >>> fact
> >>> that there are political issues that Hannah does not want to be
> >>> discussed.
> >>>
> >>> You will try to remove me from the list, but I know that this
> >>> mentality
> >>> will destroy Indymedia and all that we have been working on for years.
> >>>
> >>> And please stop your partonizing. I do not need a European to come
> >>> teach
> >>> me what to do. In a workshop or in another manner. This is disgusting.
> >>>
> >>> I request again that Blue leaves Indymedia immediately. The
> >>> good
> >>> news that she will leaving the country soon. GOOD RIDDANCE.
> >>>
> >>> Ghassan
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> >
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-beirut/2005-May/0516-ss.html
[Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
Ghassan Makarem ghassan at riseup.net
Mon May 16 04:48:35 PDT 2005
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I was just pointing out the absurdity of Blue's arguments
concerning security. Actually, The controversy around the issue, including
the film, led Hezbollah and Hariri to create a joint committee on the issue
last June, as Hassan Nasrallah said in an interview a few weeks ago. I did
not mean in any way that Raida is working with the mukhabarat.
Hannah is a different case altogether. There is a big difference between
talking to colleagues and using your connections with these colleagues
against the consensus of the group you are working with. I was also
referring to the tume when your "colleague" was involved in a series of
sexist and homophobic attacks against the independents during the No War No
Dictatorship campaign and the preparations for the Leftist Platform. I also
refer to the purge of all of us from the preparatory meetings of HYD.
We all remember that the consensus was to check out the meetings and see if
we can be part of HYD. Hannah was insiting that we join no matter what the
position of HYD is, accusing all of us, Raida included, of trying to
sabotage HYD because we wanted a democratic process. It is a purely
political issue.
Ghassan
Original Message -----
From:
To: "Ghassan Makarem"
Cc: ; "Saseen" ;
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
> this person called me at work too where he used abuisve language against
> me
> your accusasion for me of knowing that he is moukhabarat and bringing him
> to the screening is sick, you giving him the key to your place is
> something you hold complete responsibility of, you are mature enough to
> decide to whom you give access to your workplace and residency
> wake up
>
>
> > Raida and Afamia, you both know that the copy that was given to him,
> > i.e.,
> > the only copy we made without subtitles ended up in the mukhabarat. I
> > gave
> > him the key because I used to trust Raida. When I found out that the army
> > intelligence knows my house and my work in Indymedia because of the film,
> > I
> > think I have the right not to trust Raida anymore.
> >
> > The person in question had called me everyday for a whole week asking for
> > the copy. Afamia remembers very well that she also spoke to him.
> >
> > If I am mistaken, can Raida please explain how this happened and why
> > would
> > an esteemed journalist in the newspaper of the bigot Joubran Tweini call
> > me
> > and insist on getting a copy even before we decided to start distributing
> > the DVDs?
> >
> > Ghassan
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.10 - Release Date: 5/13/2005
>
>
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-beirut/2005-May/0518-do.html
[Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
RAIDA at riseup.net RAIDA at riseup.net
Wed May 18 02:13:13 PDT 2005
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well, well, for the archive, i remember very well that Bassem was
insisting on all of us to join HYD ok? i won't ask you of not being
selective in people's positions you use for your accusasions and insults
as it is clear from me that your aim behind this debate is not
construvtive. Second, i made it clear from the first "official" "public"
meeting with HYD that i won't be with them, and never attacked them after
that, it was you and others who kept attacking them and still doing this.
> I was just pointing out the absurdity of Blue's arguments
> concerning security. Actually, The controversy around the issue, including
> the film, led Hezbollah and Hariri to create a joint committee on the
> issue
> last June, as Hassan Nasrallah said in an interview a few weeks ago. I did
> not mean in any way that Raida is working with the mukhabarat.
>
> Hannah is a different case altogether. There is a big difference between
> talking to colleagues and using your connections with these colleagues
> against the consensus of the group you are working with. I was also
> referring to the tume when your "colleague" was involved in a series of
> sexist and homophobic attacks against the independents during the No War
> No
> Dictatorship campaign and the preparations for the Leftist Platform. I
> also
> refer to the purge of all of us from the preparatory meetings of HYD.
>
> We all remember that the consensus was to check out the meetings and see
> if
> we can be part of HYD. Hannah was insiting that we join no matter what the
> position of HYD is, accusing all of us, Raida included, of trying to
> sabotage HYD because we wanted a democratic process. It is a purely
> political issue.
>
> Ghassan
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> To: "Ghassan Makarem"
> Cc: ; "Saseen" ;
>
> Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 7:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
>
>
> > this person called me at work too where he used abuisve language against
> > me
> > your accusasion for me of knowing that he is moukhabarat and bringing
> > him
> > to the screening is sick, you giving him the key to your place is
> > something you hold complete responsibility of, you are mature enough to
> > decide to whom you give access to your workplace and residency
> > wake up
> >
> >
> >> Raida and Afamia, you both know that the copy that was given to him,
> >> i.e.,
> >> the only copy we made without subtitles ended up in the mukhabarat. I
> >> gave
> >> him the key because I used to trust Raida. When I found out that the
> >> army
> >> intelligence knows my house and my work in Indymedia because of the
> >> film,
> >> I
> >> think I have the right not to trust Raida anymore.
> >>
> >> The person in question had called me everyday for a whole week asking
> >> for
> >> the copy. Afamia remembers very well that she also spoke to him.
> >>
> >> If I am mistaken, can Raida please explain how this happened and why
> >> would
> >> an esteemed journalist in the newspaper of the bigot Joubran Tweini
> >> call
> >> me
> >> and insist on getting a copy even before we decided to start
> >> distributing
> >> the DVDs?
> >>
> >> Ghassan
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.10 - Release Date: 5/13/2005
> >
> >
>
> ___________________________________________
> Imc-beirut mailing list
> Imc-beirut at lists.indymedia.org
> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/imc-beirut
>
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-beirut/2005-May/0514-v4.html
[Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
Bassem Chit bassem at riseup.net
Sat May 14 05:37:05 PDT 2005
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about my membership
1 year ago i said i'm out of indymedia, and then i rejoined, does anyone
have a problem with that, is there any applications i need to fill or should
i appeal to hannah to be part of indymedia...
well i thought it's an open membership, or is it not???
if you have any problem with that please tell me on what basis is that????
because this is actually becoming an excuse to kick people out or alienate
them from the group.
Original Message -----
From: "Saseen"
To: "Ghassan Makarem" ;
Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
> i agree with ghassan that the reaon hannah is giving for deleting the
> emails is not convincing, as he said, we live in a way more oppressive
> state and we use real names, plus, no one in europe has been arrested or
> even contacted by any officials yet, maybe except in cypress as far as i
> know, and i also believe for the sake of transperancy that we all hold
> dear, no emails of this disscussion should be deleted, i'm sure they will
> prove very usefull in the future.
>
> ghassan can u please clarify your accusation of hannah's connection with
> the state department? it's a very seriuose allegation. and as i still
> trust you personly, though i dissagree with what you have been doing on
> the list, i ask you please clarify what you said about this issue.
>
> question for who ever knows: is there a suspension option? what i mean, if
> someone's involvment can be suspended until things are resolved, i would
> prefer such an option. i think bassim made up his mind about not being
> part of indymedia, but it is painfull for me that things get to this
> level. i know it's not a charecter test, but even though ghassan has been
> very disruptive in the past period, for me, he has proven to be a very
> trust worthy and committed fighter in the struggle wich lets not forget we
> are all part of it..
> i can't help but think how unfortunate all this will be 6 months from now.
>
> saseen jamil kawzally mother saide tahan born taalabaya and resident of
> beirut.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ghassan Makarem"
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 5:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
>
>
> > To be clear, I had promised Tamam not to reply anymore because my replies
> > are being used for the purpose of a purge. But I cannot accept that
> > Hannah calls me a "troll". If Sonya, Afamia, Raida, Mo, Imad, Sara etc.
> > accept that, I will be taking other measures.
> >
> > It is very clear that the issue is not language. It is a political issue
> > that started last Summer when some people in the radicalred collective
> > did not want to go to the Anti-War conference and began a series of
> > attacks against those who wanted to. If you remember, this led to the
> > breakup of that collective. Two groups were formed: Autonomia and ISG in
> > the hope that people can sit and agree on their positions then look into
> > ways of collaborating like we had done for the past 5 years.
> >
> > Unfortunately, Hannah relations with an employee of the US state
> > department in addition to the ideological purge who do not agree with a
> > certain brand of leftism has meant that this became impossible.
> >
> > Now she wants to remove the emails that include the discussion. This is
> > pure censorship and please don't give me the excuse of Indymedia being
> > persecuted in europe. Your parent, Hannah, are officials of the German
> > socialist party, they will help you out, don't worry. This security thing
> > is quite surreal. I use my real name and I am in Lebanon. I wrote against
> > the Army, the Syrians, the Americans, etc. We are not stupid to believe
> > that you want them removed because they contain your name.
> >
> > Stop using these excuses for censorship.
> >
> > On another note, I AM IN BEIRUT and I am a member of the editorial. You
> > did not even bother to give me the password although I was working on the
> > Syrian workers feature.
> >
> > I believe that this is also political. I remeber your insiting that we
> > become part of the fascist camp in Martyr Square. The same camp that
> > harbored fascists who are attacking the Syrian workers. You have been
> > discussing these issues with an employee of the US state department. This
> > reminds me of when Raida brought the Moukhabarat to the screening of the
> > Hay El Sellom film, putting everybody's life in jeopardy.
> >
> > You come from Europe, here we all know that these types of excuse for
> > purges and censorship. All this talk about language is to hide the fact
> > that there are political issues that Hannah does not want to be
> > discussed.
> >
> > You will try to remove me from the list, but I know that this mentality
> > will destroy Indymedia and all that we have been working on for years.
> >
> > And please stop your partonizing. I do not need a European to come teach
> > me what to do. In a workshop or in another manner. This is disgusting.
> >
> > I request again that Blue leaves Indymedia immediately. The good
> > news that she will leaving the country soon. GOOD RIDDANCE.
> >
> > Ghassan
> >
> >
> > ___________________________________________
> > Imc-beirut mailing list
> > Imc-beirut at lists.indymedia.org
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-beirut/2005-May/0514-ev.html
[Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
blue.pi blue.pi at so36.net
Sat May 14 04:44:17 PDT 2005
· Previous message: [Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
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could you please tell us where you said you joined again. We only found
several references to you saying that you were not part of the group. Yes,
it is open membership, but you can't become part every couple months just to
attack the group and then leave again. However, if you declared that you
joined and this was not to attack us then we made a mistake that we need to
correct.
blue
Bassem Chit writes:
> about my membership
>
> 1 year ago i said i'm out of indymedia, and then i rejoined, does anyone
> have a problem with that, is there any applications i need to fill or
> should i appeal to hannah to be part of indymedia...
>
> well i thought it's an open membership, or is it not???
> if you have any problem with that please tell me on what basis is that????
>
> because this is actually becoming an excuse to kick people out or alienate
> them from the group.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Saseen"
> To: "Ghassan Makarem" ;
>
> Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 1:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
>
>
> > i agree with ghassan that the reaon hannah is giving for deleting the
> > emails is not convincing, as he said, we live in a way more oppressive
> > state and we use real names, plus, no one in europe has been arrested or
> > even contacted by any officials yet, maybe except in cypress as far as i
> > know, and i also believe for the sake of transperancy that we all hold
> > dear, no emails of this disscussion should be deleted, i'm sure they will
> > prove very usefull in the future.
> >
> > ghassan can u please clarify your accusation of hannah's connection with
> > the state department? it's a very seriuose allegation. and as i still
> > trust you personly, though i dissagree with what you have been doing on
> > the list, i ask you please clarify what you said about this issue.
> >
> > question for who ever knows: is there a suspension option? what i mean,
> > if someone's involvment can be suspended until things are resolved, i
> > would prefer such an option. i think bassim made up his mind about not
> > being part of indymedia, but it is painfull for me that things get to
> > this level. i know it's not a charecter test, but even though ghassan has
> > been very disruptive in the past period, for me, he has proven to be a
> > very trust worthy and committed fighter in the struggle wich lets not
> > forget we are all part of it..
> > i can't help but think how unfortunate all this will be 6 months from
> > now.
> >
> > saseen jamil kawzally mother saide tahan born taalabaya and resident of
> > beirut.
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ghassan Makarem"
> > To:
> > Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 5:09 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
> >
> >
> >> To be clear, I had promised Tamam not to reply anymore because my
> >> replies are being used for the purpose of a purge. But I cannot accept
> >> that Hannah calls me a "troll". If Sonya, Afamia, Raida, Mo, Imad, Sara
> >> etc. accept that, I will be taking other measures.
> >>
> >> It is very clear that the issue is not language. It is a political issue
> >> that started last Summer when some people in the radicalred collective
> >> did not want to go to the Anti-War conference and began a series of
> >> attacks against those who wanted to. If you remember, this led to the
> >> breakup of that collective. Two groups were formed: Autonomia and ISG in
> >> the hope that people can sit and agree on their positions then look into
> >> ways of collaborating like we had done for the past 5 years.
> >>
> >> Unfortunately, Hannah relations with an employee of the US state
> >> department in addition to the ideological purge who do not agree with a
> >> certain brand of leftism has meant that this became impossible.
> >>
> >> Now she wants to remove the emails that include the discussion. This is
> >> pure censorship and please don't give me the excuse of Indymedia being
> >> persecuted in europe. Your parent, Hannah, are officials of the German
> >> socialist party, they will help you out, don't worry. This security
> >> thing is quite surreal. I use my real name and I am in Lebanon. I wrote
> >> against the Army, the Syrians, the Americans, etc. We are not stupid to
> >> believe that you want them removed because they contain your name.
> >>
> >> Stop using these excuses for censorship.
> >>
> >> On another note, I AM IN BEIRUT and I am a member of the editorial. You
> >> did not even bother to give me the password although I was working on
> >> the Syrian workers feature.
> >>
> >> I believe that this is also political. I remeber your insiting that we
> >> become part of the fascist camp in Martyr Square. The same camp that
> >> harbored fascists who are attacking the Syrian workers. You have been
> >> discussing these issues with an employee of the US state department.
> >> This reminds me of when Raida brought the Moukhabarat to the screening
> >> of the Hay El Sellom film, putting everybody's life in jeopardy.
> >>
> >> You come from Europe, here we all know that these types of excuse for
> >> purges and censorship. All this talk about language is to hide the fact
> >> that there are political issues that Hannah does not want to be
> >> discussed.
> >>
> >> You will try to remove me from the list, but I know that this mentality
> >> will destroy Indymedia and all that we have been working on for years.
> >>
> >> And please stop your partonizing. I do not need a European to come teach
> >> me what to do. In a workshop or in another manner. This is disgusting.
> >>
> >> I request again that Blue leaves Indymedia immediately. The
> >> good news that she will leaving the country soon. GOOD RIDDANCE.
> >>
> >> Ghassan
> >>
> >>
> >> ___________________________________________
> >> Imc-beirut mailing list
> >> Imc-beirut at lists.indymedia.org
> >> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/imc-beirut
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-beirut/2005-May/0514-6o.html
[Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
blue.pi blue.pi at so36.net
Sat May 14 04:40:54 PDT 2005
· Previous message: [Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
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A long time ago I pointed out security issues to people in the group and I
believe it was you, Ghassan, who said that the Lebanese and Syrian secret
services are not as much after internet activism as in Europe. I am sorry if
I misunderstood and if the situation is as bad in Lebanon - but then I don't
understand why you use your name. However, in Europe this is quite real
that's all I can say and it's not so much about going to jail, but about not
getting jobs anymore. Anyhow, it doesn't make any difference if it's real or
not. It is clear that I want my privacy to be respected otherhwise I
wouldn't be using a different name. Especially in this discussion it has
been brought by Tamam to everybody's attention that the archives are open.
and AFTER Tamam said this you, Ghassan started using my full name.
Btw. the following lie is in it self so outrages that it would alone be
enough to throw you off the list:
Ghassan Makarem writes:
> Unfortunately, Hannah relations with an employee of the US state
> department in addition to the ideological purge who do not agree with a
> certain brand of leftism has meant that this became impossible.
>
blue
Ghassan Makarem writes:
> To be clear, I had promised Tamam not to reply anymore because my replies
> are being used for the purpose of a purge. But I cannot accept that Hannah
> calls me a "troll". If Sonya, Afamia, Raida, Mo, Imad, Sara etc. accept
> that, I will be taking other measures.
>
> It is very clear that the issue is not language. It is a political issue
> that started last Summer when some people in the radicalred collective did
> not want to go to the Anti-War conference and began a series of attacks
> against those who wanted to. If you remember, this led to the breakup of
> that collective. Two groups were formed: Autonomia and ISG in the hope
> that people can sit and agree on their positions then look into ways of
> collaborating like we had done for the past 5 years.
>
> Unfortunately, Hannah relations with an employee of the US state
> department in addition to the ideological purge who do not agree with a
> certain brand of leftism has meant that this became impossible.
>
> Now she wants to remove the emails that include the discussion. This is
> pure censorship and please don't give me the excuse of Indymedia being
> persecuted in europe. Your parent, Hannah, are officials of the German
> socialist party, they will help you out, don't worry. This security thing
> is quite surreal. I use my real name and I am in Lebanon. I wrote against
> the Army, the Syrians, the Americans, etc. We are not stupid to believe
> that you want them removed because they contain your name.
>
> Stop using these excuses for censorship.
>
> On another note, I AM IN BEIRUT and I am a member of the editorial. You
> did not even bother to give me the password although I was working on the
> Syrian workers feature.
>
> I believe that this is also political. I remeber your insiting that we
> become part of the fascist camp in Martyr Square. The same camp that
> harbored fascists who are attacking the Syrian workers. You have been
> discussing these issues with an employee of the US state department. This
> reminds me of when Raida brought the Moukhabarat to the screening of the
> Hay El Sellom film, putting everybody's life in jeopardy.
>
> You come from Europe, here we all know that these types of excuse for
> purges and censorship. All this talk about language is to hide the fact
> that there are political issues that Hannah does not want to be discussed.
>
> You will try to remove me from the list, but I know that this mentality
> will destroy Indymedia and all that we have been working on for years.
>
> And please stop your partonizing. I do not need a European to come teach
> me what to do. In a workshop or in another manner. This is disgusting.
>
> I request again that Blue leaves Indymedia immediately. The good
> news that she will leaving the country soon. GOOD RIDDANCE.
>
> Ghassan
>
>
> ___________________________________________
> Imc-beirut mailing list
> Imc-beirut at lists.indymedia.org
> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/imc-beirut
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-beirut/2005-May/0514-33.html
[Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
Bassem Chit bassem at riseup.net
Sat May 14 05:48:56 PDT 2005
· Previous message: [Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
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· Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]
hannah, obviously there is no consensus to your proposal of exculsion,
since me, bernadette, tamam and saseen disagreed on that so on that basis i
request from you to refrain from asking ghassan to leave since your request
is now against consensus.
Original Message -----
From: "blue.pi"
To:
Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 1:40 PM
Subject: [Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
> A long time ago I pointed out security issues to people in the group and I
> believe it was you, Ghassan, who said that the Lebanese and Syrian secret
> services are not as much after internet activism as in Europe. I am sorry
> if I misunderstood and if the situation is as bad in Lebanon - but then I
> don't understand why you use your name. However, in Europe this is quite
> real that's all I can say and it's not so much about going to jail, but
> about not getting jobs anymore. Anyhow, it doesn't make any difference if
> it's real or not. It is clear that I want my privacy to be respected
> otherhwise I wouldn't be using a different name. Especially in this
> discussion it has been brought by Tamam to everybody's attention that the
> archives are open. and AFTER Tamam said this you, Ghassan started using my
> full name.
> Btw. the following lie is in it self so outrages that it would alone be
> enough to throw you off the list:
>
> Ghassan Makarem writes:
> > Unfortunately, Hannah relations with an employee of the US state
> > department in addition to the ideological purge who do not agree with a
> > certain brand of leftism has meant that this became impossible.
> blue
>
>
> Ghassan Makarem writes:
> > To be clear, I had promised Tamam not to reply anymore because my replies
> > are being used for the purpose of a purge. But I cannot accept that
> > Hannah calls me a "troll". If Sonya, Afamia, Raida, Mo, Imad, Sara etc.
> > accept that, I will be taking other measures. It is very clear that the
> > issue is not language. It is a political issue that started last Summer
> > when some people in the radicalred collective did not want to go to the
> > Anti-War conference and began a series of attacks against those who
> > wanted to. If you remember, this led to the breakup of that collective.
> > Two groups were formed: Autonomia and ISG in the hope that people can sit
> > and agree on their positions then look into ways of collaborating like we
> > had done for the past 5 years. Unfortunately, Hannah relations with an
> > employee of the US state department in addition to the ideological purge
> > who do not agree with a certain brand of leftism has meant that this
> > became impossible. Now she wants to remove the emails that include the
> > discussion. This is pure censorship and please don't give me the excuse
> > of Indymedia being persecuted in europe. Your parent, Hannah, are
> > officials of the German socialist party, they will help you out, don't
> > worry. This security thing is quite surreal. I use my real name and I am
> > in Lebanon. I wrote against the Army, the Syrians, the Americans, etc. We
> > are not stupid to believe that you want them removed because they contain
> > your name. Stop using these excuses for censorship. On another note, I AM
> > IN BEIRUT and I am a member of the editorial. You did not even bother to
> > give me the password although I was working on the Syrian workers
> > feature. I believe that this is also political. I remeber your insiting
> > that we become part of the fascist camp in Martyr Square. The same camp
> > that harbored fascists who are attacking the Syrian workers. You have
> > been discussing these issues with an employee of the US state department.
> > This reminds me of when Raida brought the Moukhabarat to the screening of
> > the Hay El Sellom film, putting everybody's life in jeopardy. You come
> > from Europe, here we all know that these types of excuse for purges and
> > censorship. All this talk about language is to hide the fact that there
> > are political issues that Hannah does not want to be discussed. You will
> > try to remove me from the list, but I know that this mentality will
> > destroy Indymedia and all that we have been working on for years. And
> > please stop your partonizing. I do not need a European to come teach me
> > what to do. In a workshop or in another manner. This is disgusting. I
> > request again that Blue leaves Indymedia immediately. The good
> > news that she will leaving the country soon. GOOD RIDDANCE. Ghassan
> > ___________________________________________
> > Imc-beirut mailing list
> > Imc-beirut at lists.indymedia.org
> > http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/imc-beirut
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/imc-beirut/2005-May/0514-2o.html
[Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
Saseen la_elaha at hotmail.com
Sat May 14 05:49:17 PDT 2005
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i did not disagree with what blue suggested yet.
please read my last email, and if a it comes to a vote, i agree voting
ghassan out, but as i said, i do it with much sorrow because i still don't
understand his attitude and don't agree with his arguments and accusations
for blue.
but the last accusation ghassan about the connection with the state
department should be clarified immidiatly, ghassan if you can't back it
up...it's eruiose.
saseen.
Original Message -----
From: "Bassem Chit"
To: "Indymedia Beirut"
Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2005 5:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Imc-beirut] Re: Proposal exclusion - deadline 26.5
> hannah, obviously there is no consensus to your proposal of exculsion,
> since me, bernadette, tamam and saseen disagreed on that so on that basis
> i request from you to refrain from asking ghassan to le