#mir
21:41 < ng[home]> maybe you could have a look at https://docs.indymedia.org/view/Local/ImcChNewSite
21:41 < ng[home]> and tell me what you think
21:42 < alex> and btw, i myself am not an active developer
21:42 < ng[home]> but you're sure better known to mir than i
21:44 < skep> hmm..you have very very specific ideas about your database...not sure if it's easy to do..if it's possible at all...
21:44 < ng[home]> well we would do what we can ;-)
21:45 < ng[home]> but first we have to get known to mir but it would be nice if you could tell us what is already possible and what not
21:45 < skep> well..for one thing you could ask in #uk because they have subsites ect....and they use different templates for 
              "sub-collectives"
21:46 < skep> kinda like you want to do..
21:46 < ng[home]> this is something i thought that maybe it would be on the admin site
21:46 < ng[home]> because fr/de/it is nothing else than different cities
21:47 < ng[home]> but it would be important for us to split up the admin interface because noe we have all together and it's a bit a bzard
21:47 < skep> well...the articles-table can have a language-field (it does already) so you can easily select the language-specifix articles 
              for each subsite(de/fr/en)
21:48 < ng[home]> and how about the translation stuff? could we use something like on indymedia.org?
21:48 < ng[home]> how does it there work?
21:49 < skep> afaik all translated articles go into the <lang>-folder...thats configurable in the producers.xml..
21:50 < skep> so you can use it like indy.org does..
21:50 < ng[home]> and the add translation on a feature is just something like a new post but linked with the orig article?
21:50 < skep> I think so...(but not 100% sure)
21:50 < ng[home]> np we'll see ;-)
21:51 < ng[home]> just to see where the biggest problems could be...
21:51 < skep> about splitting the admin...thats a bit more complicated...
21:51 < skep> Zapata should tell you more..
21:51 < ng[home]> ok
21:53 < skep> +  one Articles table (it,de,fr) for each collective
21:53 < skep> I would use only one table...as I said..use the language-field
21:54 < ng[home]> we'll the tables are just an adhoc brainstorm with people unknown to mir but thanks for the hint
[...]
22:55 <@Zapata> hey
22:55 < skep> ng[home], now it's your chance...!!!
22:56 <@Zapata> alster: as you may know, several indymedia activists are communists
22:56 < ng[home]> ;)
22:56 <@Zapata> hey ng
22:56 < ng[home]> ciao 
22:56 <@Zapata> were you around when indymedia ch switched to mir?
22:57 < ng[home]> now noone really from then is still in the indy.ch collective :-(
22:57 <@Zapata> ok
22:57 <@Zapata> let me tell you the history of imc ch's mir usage
22:57  * skep gets chips and beer
22:57 <@Zapata> in the beginning, there was only really a german collective
22:57 <@Zapata> the site used active
22:57  * alex is thinking the same thing
22:57 <@Zapata> the akdh thing came around
22:58 < ng[home]> yep
22:58 <@Zapata> the site went blank
22:58 <@Zapata> then
22:58 < ng[home]> the close and then the reopening
22:58 < alex> ohnos!
22:58 <@Zapata> the people wanted to reopen using mir
22:58 <@Zapata> and change the site to incorporate 3 collectives, 1 per language
22:59 <@Zapata> the first attempt to do this (this was in the ancient codebase) was to set up 3 mirs
22:59 <@Zapata> the 3 mirs generated pages in the same docroot
22:59 <@Zapata> and I think they might even have used the same db, but I don't know for sure anymore
22:59 <@Zapata> anyway
22:59 <@Zapata> about then I came around
22:59 <@Zapata> and I had made the producers.xml thing
23:00 <@Zapata> with the improved multi-language support
23:00 <@Zapata> etc
23:00 < ng[home]> ok...
23:00 <@Zapata> so, then the current setup was invented
23:00 <@Zapata> btw, bak had worked on a new template set
23:00 <@Zapata> for reasons that mostly have to do with my lack of time, they were never put live
23:00 < alex> what are "templates"? :p
23:00 <@Zapata> they did include the translation feature for instance
23:01 < skep> alex, don't joke around :p
23:01 < alex> i'd never
23:01 < skep> ;)
23:01 -!- alex was kicked from #mir by Zapata [this channel is only for people who know what templates are]
23:01 -!- alex [irc@localhost] has joined #mir
23:01 < alex> :p
23:01 <@Zapata> :-p
23:01 < ng[home]> ok maybe bak will also help with our ideas
23:01 < skep> haha
23:01 <@Zapata> is bak still around a bit?
23:01 < ng[home]> but we have lost connection to him :(
23:01 <@Zapata> ok
23:01 <@Zapata> well
23:02 <@Zapata> I would very much like to put his templates live after all this time
23:02 < ng[home]> but we (de/it) try to reassign
23:02 <@Zapata> as I feel very guilty it never went live
23:02 < alex> what's the speciality about baks templates?
23:02 < ng[home]> yep another person from us changed the themplates for the de site
23:02 <@Zapata> http://bak.mir.dnsalias.net/fr/
23:03 < skep> nice
23:03 <@Zapata> anyway...
23:03 <@Zapata> your question was 
23:03 <@Zapata> whether it was possible in mir to have seperate admins
23:03 <@Zapata> as such it is not possible
23:04 < alex> sexy
23:04 <@Zapata> we have planned to make it for a long time, but it hasn't happened yet
23:04 <@Zapata> due to time constraints, it doesn't look like it will be there soon
23:04 <@Zapata> however
23:04 < ng[home]> ok good to know this hints
23:04 <@Zapata> my counter question would be
23:04 <@Zapata> why do you want seperate admins?
23:05 < ng[home]> well it's a bit a bazard currently and we want to take decision autonom by collective
23:05 <@Zapata> ok
23:05 <@Zapata> but
23:05 < ng[home]> so we want only that the collective which the article is belonging to can decide
23:06 <@Zapata> but do the collectives trust each other?
23:06 < ng[home]> it sounds like not butwe do
23:06 <@Zapata> ok
23:06 <@Zapata> so
23:06 <@Zapata> the admin seperation
23:06 <@Zapata> isn't necessarily for the authorizational aspects
23:07 < ng[home]> well i'll tell why we thought about that
23:07 <@Zapata> what I would suggest you do
23:07 <@Zapata> is to ask the uk people about their experiences
23:07 <@Zapata> they have many collectives all using 1 mir
23:07 <@Zapata> but each with their own part of the site, their own templates
23:07 <@Zapata> every "city" there is a topic
23:07 < ng[home]> when there was the ahimsa story and some rumours about geneva civil cops
23:08 < ng[home]> there not every collective wasn't on the same opinion about what to do with such articles
23:08 <@Zapata> right
23:09 <@Zapata> some points on this:
23:09 <@Zapata> 1. this same situation would happen if there were seperate mirs/seperate mir admins but still a single site
23:09 <@Zapata> i.e. sharing a site means sharing the responsability
23:10 < ng[home]> ok sure
23:10 <@Zapata> 2. this situation is (hopefully) extreme. It isn't everyday that indymedia servers are confiscated because of photo's of 
                swiss cops
23:10 < ng[home]> but the sharing in future we thought about like oceania.indymedia.org
23:11 <@Zapata> so I would say, setting up a good policy between the collectives: how are such things decided, might prevent such a 
                situation from being a problem
23:11 <@Zapata> secondary, I wouldn't base the overall strategy of the ch site on something that happend once in a very long time
23:11 <@Zapata> ok, oceania
23:12 <@Zapata> that would mean entirely seperate sites and 1 site which shows the combined features
23:12 < ng[home]> but would this mean 3 different mir installs on 3 different dbs?
23:12 <@Zapata> yeah
23:12 < ng[home]> and one collector app?
23:12 <@Zapata> yeah, a seperate collector mir
23:13 <@Zapata> that's how oceania works, though they don't use mir
23:13 <@Zapata> but this would also be possible with a single mir
23:13 <@Zapata> and a single mir allows for more:
23:13 <@Zapata> suppose an article is posted on the german part
23:13 < ng[home]> well but we'd like to add the possibility to add translation to the features like on indy.org because we'd like to 
                  translate each feature
23:13 <@Zapata> but has relevance to the french part
23:13 <@Zapata> etc.
23:13 < ng[home]> and give the possibility to translate each article/calendar entry etc.
23:14 <@Zapata> exactly
                dislikes it
23:14 <@Zapata> all arguments to go for a single mir, have a good agreement on responsability, and have a convenient way to manage the 
                different sites autonomously
23:15 < ng[home]> and if we'd like still to have the mix like now would this still be possible?
23:15 <@Zapata> alster: I mentioned it because some communists tend to feel isolated in indymedia
23:15 <@Zapata> the mix is always possible in a single mir
23:16 < ng[home]> and admin interfaces seperated by language?
23:16 < ng[home]> (as another thought)
23:16 < skep> /kick Alster you know why *g*
23:16 < Alster> why!
23:16  * ng[home] thanks for the answers
23:16 < skep> stupid 2-class system here in #mir :p
23:16  * Alster uses his best innocent look
23:17 < skep> I can't kick ppl
23:17 <@Zapata> well, we can look at how we can seperate the mir admin interfaces
23:17 <@Zapata> how are they seperated now btw?
23:17 <@Zapata> are articles per language still seperately viewable?
23:17 < ng[home]> no 
23:17 <@Zapata> oh
23:17 < ng[home]> never seen something like this
23:17 <@Zapata> hmmm
23:18 <@Zapata> it was there
23:18 <@Zapata> but perhaps it got somehow lost
23:18 <@Zapata> the seperation now is on language
23:18 < ng[home]> but would this be a admin template issue (if there's something like this)
23:18 <@Zapata> there is, but I'd still like to approach it differently :-)
23:18 <@Zapata> the seperation now is on language
23:19 <@Zapata> would it make sense to change this
23:19 <@Zapata> into seperation based on city
23:19 < ng[home]> well what would be difference
23:19 <@Zapata> i.e. allow german articles to be posted to the lausanne site
23:19 <@Zapata> and then have it fall under the lausanne responsability
23:19 <@Zapata> or wouldn't this make sense?
23:20 < ng[home]> mmmh no german articles should be posted on de but it should be known that this is a german translation of an article of 
                  fr
23:21 <@Zapata> well, I mean more like
23:21 <@Zapata> an article originally in german, but dealing with lausanne
23:21 < ng[home]> ok
23:21 <@Zapata> would it make sense
23:21 <@Zapata> or does this never really happen?
23:22 < ng[home]> sure it does, but this should be on the de site (like now)
23:22 < ng[home]> but we'd like to have the possiblity to add a translation to this article which will be viewable under lausanne
23:22 <@Zapata> ok
23:23 <@Zapata> so the seperatation should continue to be based on language
23:23 < ng[home]> we have had some brainstormin on this
23:23 <@Zapata> seperation even
23:23 <@Zapata> separation even ;-)
23:23 <@Zapata> ok
23:23 < ng[home]> but as we are unknown to mir we're not sure what is possible yet and not
23:24 < ng[home]> we have it on our wiki if you'd like to read it
23:24 < ng[home]> (or you have already ;)
23:24 <@Zapata> I haven't yet
23:24 <@Zapata> but I need to go to bed in a moment
23:24 <@Zapata> however, usually it's better to first freely think of what you want
23:25 <@Zapata> and only then hold it against what is possible
23:25 <@Zapata> and then come to a compromise
23:25 < ng[home]> ;)
23:25 <@Zapata> anyway...
23:25 < ng[home]> yeah we started setting up some test server so questions will come ;)
23:25 <@Zapata> we can continue this discussion tomorrow evening or so
23:25 < ng[home]> thanks anyway for your answers
23:26 <@Zapata> np


#uk
21:59 < ng[home]> well we're thinking about some changes to our mir install
22:00 < ng[home]> and there is the idea of splitting up the admin interfaces
22:00 <@chrisc> ah, right
22:00 <@chrisc> we haven't done anything liek that
22:00 < ng[home]> how is this on your site? do you have seperate admininterfs for each city?
22:00 <@chrisc> no
22:00 < ng[home]> ah ok
22:00 <@chrisc> everyone has full access
22:01 < ng[home]> but can you filter between the cities?
22:01 <@chrisc> we were looking at making seperate publish pages for different cities for the public
22:01 <@chrisc> no, we have no way in the admin interface to show things any differently
22:02 <@chrisc> a feature like that would be nice
22:02 -!- Tash [~Alan@cpc3-nott3-3-1-cust95.nott.cable.ntl.com] has left #uk [Tash is leaving and says bye]
22:02 <@chrisc> but i thik it would be quite a lot of work to implement...
22:02 < ng[home]> if there is something published on birmingham imc is it on all the others visible as well?
22:02 < ng[home]> or how do you differ?
22:03 <@chrisc> um, each city is a topic
22:03 <@chrisc> and it's done like that
22:03 < ng[home]> ah ok
22:04 < ng[home]> we just have had some thoughts of our newcite
22:04 < ng[home]> and i'd like to check out what is possible yet and what not
22:05 < ng[home]> https://docs.indymedia.org/view/Local/ImcChNewSite
22:08 <@chrisc> ah
22:08 <@chrisc> well
22:08 <@chrisc> i will read this in a bit, it looks interesting
22:10 < ng[home]> it's just some brainstorming of people unknown to mir on an admin way ;)
22:11 <@chrisc> well, i think the hardest thing might be the 3 seperate admin interfaces
22:11 <@chrisc> the rest is probably doable with time and the know how
22:11 <@chrisc> regarding only using free software
22:11 <@chrisc> we tried this, and found kaffe to be 10 times slower than blackdown java
22:12 <@chrisc> so although it works it's not yet ready for production machines
22:12 < ng[home]> ok so kaffe isn't yet a good alternative
22:12 <@chrisc> yeah
22:12 < ng[home]> good to know

-- NeGu - 12 Oct 2005
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