--- Log opened wto kwi 11 11:33:47 2006
11:35 -!- boud changed the topic of #palestine to: imc-ps-process admins: who; other issues...
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--- Day changed sro kwi 12 2006
08:49 -!- ryan [...] has joined #palestine
08:49 <_ryan> hi.. waiting for mtg...
08:49 <_ryan> :)
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12:28 <_fffffajertv> hi
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17:49 <_boud_> hi ryan - i'll be offline for most of the meeting - but i'm logging - if people accept to make the log public, i can publish it later (but only if there's consensus on that)
17:55 <_boud_> well, i'm logging as boud, not boud_
17:56 <_boud_> bye
17:56 <_boud_> \quit
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18:03 -!- devlish [...] has joined #palestine
18:03 <_devlish> hey guys am on line from the imemc 
18:04 <_devlish> will be here for the discussion as am still getting feature ready for freespeech radio 
18:26 -!- shiar [...] has joined #palestine
18:26 <_shiar> hi all
18:27 <_shiar> am shiar from imc uk and would like to get involved in this
18:28 <_shiar> i speak arabic fluently so..
18:35 <_devlish> hey that will be cool 
18:36 <_shiar> btw, me and some friends in syria and elsewhere have been trying to set up and arabic imc, like language-based, but it's not going well
18:36 <_shiar> basically due to lack of techies
18:36 <_shiar> and fear among those who live there
18:36 <_devlish> well the palestine project will be linked up with the pnr which is arabic
18:37 <_devlish> we will be using sf active for the site because it can deal with arabic 
18:37 <_shiar> mir can't?
18:38 <_shiar> it's great for other langs i thought, but don't know about arabic
18:38 <_shiar> it's quite difficult cos it's right-to-left
18:38 <_devlish> yeah thats right 
18:39 <_shiar> i've been trying to trnaslate wikimedia (dakar release into arabic) but lots of technical probs
18:39 <_shiar> see this https://docs.indymedia.org/view/Main/WebHomeAr
18:39 <_shiar> that would be quite useful innit?
18:40 <_devlish> so this is a mir template
18:40 <_shiar> no that different
18:41 <_shiar> that's TWiki
18:41 <_shiar> mir is for imc's
18:41 <_shiar> the uk and global sites run on mir
18:41 <_shiar> and germany i thinnk
18:42 <_devlish> ok 
18:42 <_devlish> well we have already had a discussion with peeps her ethat mir is difficult 
18:42 <_shiar> i see
18:42 <_devlish> so sf active seems able to cop e
18:43 <_devlish> the meeting starts at 8 pal time 
18:43 <_devlish> which is 6 uk 
18:43 <_shiar> oh fuck
18:43 <_shiar> i've got to leave soon
18:44 <_shiar> or perhaps i should go now and be back at 6
18:44 <_shiar> yeah, see in a bit then
18:44 -!- shiar is now known as shiar_away
18:48 -!- jenka [...] has joined #palestine
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18:54 <_devlish> hey people 
18:54 <_devlish> we are still waiting to hear back from FSR
18:54 -!- Alfajertv [...] has joined #palestine
18:55 <_devlish> so are still in the office
18:55 <_sabbah> hello everyone
18:56 <_devlish> hello sabbah : ) 
18:56 <_sabbah> hi devlish
18:58 <_devlish> hey : ) 
18:58 <_sabbah> what's up man
18:58 <_sabbah> is it early?
18:59 <_devlish> no just waiting for meeting to start 
18:59 <_sabbah> i can't recal what time it is in palestine now, is it already 8
18:59 <_devlish> in 1 min 
18:59 <_devlish> where are you ?
19:00 <_sabbah> ok, I thought we have a time difference
19:00 <_sabbah> I'm in bahrain
19:00 <_devlish> what time is it in Barain ?
19:00 <_sabbah> that's were I live and work
19:00 <_sabbah> it is 8 pm only
19:00 <_devlish> oh so time differnce 
19:00 <_devlish> yeah 
19:01 <_sabbah> but i thought in palestine they are one hour behind us
19:01 -!- shiar_away is now known as shiar
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19:01 <_devlish> but we were going to chat in the same palce but are getting a radio feature fpr the states who are ten hours behind us so are waiting to hear back from them 
19:02 <_sabbah> cool
19:02 <_devlish> so cannot leave 
19:02 <_devlish> whatya doing in bahrain ?
19:03 <_sabbah> i work for a mobile telecom co. here
19:03 <_sabbah> it's been 3 years already, nice place, nice people
19:03 <_devlish> do you do a lot of indy stuff generally 
19:03 <_sabbah> what about you, where do u live?
19:04 <_devlish> in Plaestine at the moment 
19:04 <_sabbah> cool
19:04 <_sabbah> indy stuff? what do u mean?
19:04 <_devlish> indymedia 
19:05 <_sabbah> i know what it stand for, but i'm asking what indy stuff you think I'm doing?
19:05 <_sabbah> in fact all my time is devided between blogs
19:05 <_devlish> this is a channel for sorting out the Palestine Indymedia project 
19:05 <_jenka> hey i made a log of the last irc meeting, but i didn't post it because i didn't ask first
19:05 <_devlish> sounds cool 
19:06 <_sabbah> yeah :)
19:06 <_sabbah> jenka, so you are here, hi ;)
19:07 <_sabbah> can i have a copy of the last irc meeting by email?
19:07 <_sabbah> sorry, but if i may ask, jenka is a he or she?
19:07 -!- George-IMEMC [...] has joined #palestine
19:08 <_George-IMEMC> Hello Everyone19:08 <_shiar> is everyone here supposed to be involved with setting up imc pal?
19:08 <_devlish> hey george 
19:08 <_devlish> hey shiar 
19:08 <_shiar> hey
19:08 <_sabbah> hello shiar
19:08 <_shiar> lo
19:08 <_devlish> it would be great to have you as uk bods with araby are hard to find who are also intersted in indy 
19:09 <_George-IMEMC> Hazem, nice to see you online..
19:09 <_devlish> am talking to shiar 
19:09 <_shiar> :)
19:09 -!- shadifadda [...] has joined #palestine
19:10 <_Alfajertv> me too
19:10 -!- Fadi [...] has joined #palestine
19:11 <_shadifadda> hi everyone :)
19:11 <_shadifadda> did I skip anything?
19:11 <_George-IMEMC> not yet Shadi
19:11 <_sabbah> hey shadifadda
19:12 <_shadifadda> hi sabbah
19:13 <_jenka> i am sitting in a room with hossam, saed, ehab, peter 
19:13 <_devlish> wish I was with you 
19:13 <_jenka> talking about indymedia palestine and linux......they are interested in linux
19:13 <_Fadi> Guys, I will not be online for this meeting, maybe somebody from PNN will join you, but George will be in touch with me all the time and I will try to give feedback when needed.
19:14 <_jenka> how about if i send the log from the last meeting to the cc: list....is everyone on the list?
19:14 <_George-IMEMC> Ok Fadi,, 
19:14 <_Fadi> sorry guys, see later,, I really appologize for not being able to join you this evening.
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19:16 <_George-IMEMC> Hey Ryan,, I wonder if we have met when you were in Palestine
19:16 <_shiar> so has this gone through the new imc process yet?
19:17 <_devlish> what is the new process is there a wikki ?
19:17 <_George-IMEMC> Shiar, did you introduce yourself? I might have missed it,,
19:18 <_shiar> am from imc uk and i speak arabic
19:18 <_George-IMEMC> Alright, thanks
19:18 <_jenka> shiar: check the archives of the new-imc list - that will tell you the status of the project
19:18 <_shiar> k
19:19 <_jenka> if anyone is not on the cc: list, msg me your email address and i will email you the log of the last meeting
19:19 <_jenka> is it ok with everyone if i log this meeting?
19:19 <_George-IMEMC> yes
19:19 <_sabbah> i'm ok
19:19 <_devlish> cool 
19:19 <_shadifadda> no objections :)
19:20 <_shiar> is this channel registered and encrypted and everything
19:22 <_George-IMEMC> Where is Saed?
19:22 -!- ftp [...] has joined #palestine
19:22 <_ftp> lo
19:22 <_shiar> hi ftp:)
19:22 <_ftp> :)
19:22 <_shiar> good to see you again
19:23 <_ftp> likewise
19:23 <_George-IMEMC> who is ftp?
19:23 <_ftp> hi George - it's Robin
19:23 <_George-IMEMC> Aha,,hopw are ya.,,, 
19:23 <_George-IMEMC> long time no see my friend
19:23 <_ftp> okay thanks, and you?
19:23 <_devlish> hey ftp : ) 
19:24 <_ftp> yeah - I tried to come for christmas and spent 8 days in an Israeli cell :(
19:24 <_George-IMEMC> I doing fine
19:24 <_ftp> hi devlish
19:24 <_devlish> hey my dear 
19:24 <_George-IMEMC> damn, i heared about it,,
19:24 <_ftp> yeah - bummer
19:26 <_jenka> i will brb ....saed is here now, he will fill me in
19:26 <_devlish> no I have skype 
19:26 <_devlish> and he pm me 
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19:28 <_saedb> hello all 
19:28  * shiar is waiting for the meeting to kick off
19:28 <_ryan> hello all
19:28 <_sabbah> hey Saed
19:28 <_saedb> hala 
19:28 <_devlish> hey there 
19:28 <_saedb> i c most of us are here
19:29 <_devlish> yay!
19:30 <_shiar> arabic punctuality ey :P
19:34 -!- jebba [...] has joined #palestine
19:34 -!- ben_ [...] has joined #palestine
19:34 <_saedb> hey jebba how r u 
19:34 <_George-IMEMC> I guess we are expecting more people to join,,
19:35 <_George-IMEMC> but what do you think, should we start?
19:35 <_shiar> it's getting late innit?
19:35 <_jenka> rooah george
19:35 <_devlish> hey ben 
19:36 <_jebba> heya
19:36 <_devlish> am ready to start 
19:36 <_jenka> does anyone else want the log from the last irc meeting emailed to them?
19:36 <_George-IMEMC> who are jebba and ben
19:36 <_ryan> jenka: i would like that please
19:36 <_devlish> yes please 
19:36  * ben_ is london uk
19:36 <_sabbah> me too plz
19:36 <_George-IMEMC> and jebba??
19:37 <_jebba> George-IMEMC, i am  an indymedia sysadmin
19:37 <_George-IMEMC> cool
19:37 <_shiar> i.e. a techie ;)
19:37 <_George-IMEMC> I ask, because I always prefer to know who I am talking to... and everybody uses nick names 
19:38 <_jebba> i'm jeff@...
19:38  * ben_ is not a nick 
19:38 <_shiar> hehe
19:38 <_George-IMEMC> good
19:39  * ben_ slaps self after revealing true identity
19:39 <_sabbah> you didn't ask me George, so I assum you know me ;)
19:39 <_ben_> devlish could vouch for most on here I suspect
19:40 <_devlish> yay and ftp 
19:40 <_George-IMEMC> Sabbah: I got your name from Jenka,,
19:40 <_ben_> ftp.. cool, long time, where you been?
19:40 <_sabbah> Haitham Sabbah, of http://sabbah.biz/ blog, and admin of palestine blogs aggregator, and MENA regional editor at Global Voices Online
19:40 <_devlish> ben looks after a social centre in london called ramparts 
19:41 <_George-IMEMC> I am glad that we have more indymedia people now than last week, this is REALLY Great
19:41 <_devlish> that does lotsa pal support stuff
19:41 <_ftp> @ ben - hibernating ;)
19:41 <_jenka> is raad here?
19:41  * jenka volunteer with imemc in palestine right now.....and all around indymedia and open source activist
19:42 <_George-IMEMC> Raad is not here yet, he said he will be online,, I am trying to call him, but I am unable to reach him at the moment
19:42 <_sabbah> so, are we starting or do I have the chance to log-off and on using another IRC client?
19:42 <_devlish> devlish imemc volunteer and indy uk bod, as well on working on various indy projects around the place
19:43 <_George-IMEMC> you will miss intros Sabbah
19:43 <_sabbah> i'm staying :)
19:43 <_shiar> [18:17] <@shiar> from imc uk and i speak arabic :)
19:43 <_ftp> ftp - indymedia london/uk - ismer
19:43 <_George-IMEMC> George is IMEMC as well, director of the Rapprochement Centre in Beit Sahour, and co-founder of ISM inshallah soon Indymedia Palestine
19:44 -!- Alfajertv [...] has left #palestine []
19:46 <_devlish> sabbeh your blog looks interesting 
19:46 <_George-IMEMC> what is your blog sabbah
19:46 <_sabbah> :) thx
19:46 <_jenka> hmmm too bad we can't have translation.......it seems that is why hazem (alfajertv) from tulkarem left.......too much english....
19:47 <_sabbah> my blog is http://sabbah.biz/
19:47 -!- Alster [...] has joined #palestine
19:48 <_sabbah> Palestine Blogs Aggregator is: http://palestineblogs.org/
19:48 <_George-IMEMC> I will save it to check it later, thanks
19:48 <_jenka> sabbah: are you the one who travelled with david rovics?
19:49 <_shadifadda> are we due to start, so we can finish ;)
19:49 <_George-IMEMC> I guess we should start
19:49 <_shiar> i think irc server supports arabic script so if ppl wnat to write in arabic
19:49 <_George-IMEMC> i will try it
19:49 <_George-IMEMC> ^^0645^^0631^^062d^^0628^^0627
19:49 <_sabbah> jenka: david rovics?
19:49 <_George-IMEMC> is it readable
19:50 <_devlish> hmmm numbers only 
19:50 <_shiar> ĹŽÂ~DĹ~X§
19:50 <_jenka> i think the agenda is: who will administer the imc-ps-process list?  if there is to be an imc-ps-process list......or if we will just use imc-palestine list .....but since neither of the admins of imc-palestine list are here, it will be hard to make that decision
19:50 <_shiar> that was no in arabic and i could read it here
19:50 <_jenka> well i can read shiar's arabic text, but not george's
19:50 <_shiar> your irc client should support arabic as well
19:51 <_devlish> well can we not make another list for the process any way 
19:51 <_George-IMEMC> devlish has mac,, I guess this is the prob,,
19:52  * ben_ is on a mac and can read shiars no but not geroges
19:52 <_sabbah> sorry guys, when you are saying "process" you mean to process what?
19:52 <_George-IMEMC> anyway,, I would love to know if anybody have reservations on the process of restablishing indymedia Palestine according to the proposal sent by Jenka couple of weeks ago
19:52 <_jebba> are the old imc-palestine listadmins completely missing for a long time? If so, we could just start the list again and have new admins.
19:52 <_devlish> I think we just start again 
19:53 <_devlish> a new list 
19:53  * shiar nods
19:53 <_George-IMEMC> I spoke with two of the old admins, and they want to be in, but none of them is here now,, and I guess we should start a new list
19:53 <_devlish> maybe just give it the name pal process
19:53 <_sabbah> I have no reservations to jenka proposal
19:53 <_devlish> me neither 
19:53 <_George-IMEMC> others?
19:54 <_ben_> haven't read background - can't comment
19:54 <_devlish> can we send a link to the proposal for those who have not seen it 
19:54 <_shiar> is this the proposal: http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/new-imc/2006-March/0327-f5.html
19:54 <_George-IMEMC> thanx shiar
19:54 <_shiar> :)
19:55 <_saedb> hi all
19:55 <_shiar> the deadline was 10 days ago
19:55 <_jebba> i have no reservations for starting imc-pal per jenka's proposal.  Re: mailing list I think the old one should be restarted leaving the old admins in place and perhaps adding one or two people from here. 
19:55 <_saedb> this is Saed - IMEMC
19:56 <_shiar> so i guess if no one has objected you should go ahead
19:56 <_devlish> k
19:56 <_ben_> seems fine - would be interested in why the list died and what will be different now
19:56 <_shiar> good point
19:57 <_George-IMEMC> i agree to jebba's suggestion to keep admins, and add more, but ask them again if they want to stay
19:57 -!- anarchist [...] has joined #palestine
19:57 <_George-IMEMC> i guess this is Raad who joined now
19:58 <_ben_> hello, anarchist
19:58 <_ryan> my only input is that we should try to reach out to some people who feel alienated from this process
19:58 <_ryan> bilal from deheishe has been contacting me and wants to continue to be involved
19:58 <_George-IMEMC> I spoke with him, he also told me that, but he never showed up
19:59 <_ryan> he is in italy now
19:59 <_George-IMEMC> i see
19:59 <_anarchist> hey all
19:59 <_anarchist> sorry for being late just tech prob
19:59 <_George-IMEMC> alright raad
19:59 <_George-IMEMC> we were discussing the old list
19:59 <_George-IMEMC> there were two suggestions
20:00 <_shadifadda> I guess the question shouldn't be, who wishes to remain there, but you really has time and will for it
20:00 <_anarchist> ya can you folks tell me where is the discussion now?
20:00 <_George-IMEMC> one is to start a new one, and the other was to keep the old admins, and add couple more
20:00 -!- jenka_ [...] has joined #palestine
20:00 <_devlish> I do not mind admining the list
20:00 <_jenka_> sorry, got disconnected
20:00 <_ryan> i would like to see reformation of imc-palestine list ... and then a discussion about how to organize imc-palestine to avoid the mistakes of before
20:00 <_ryan> i think there are a couple people with good ideas about how to do that
20:01 <_George-IMEMC> good idea Ryan
20:01 <_devlish> what were the main issues 
20:01 <_jenka_> i want to respond to ben's question -- i wrote an email to Bilal, one of the admins of the old list, back in february, asking:
20:01 <_jenka_> >what happened to imc palestine after 2003?
20:01 -!- jenka [...] has quit [Ping timeout: 612 seconds]
20:01 <_jenka_> he responded:
20:01 -!- saedb [...] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:01 <_jenka_> Daer : still we have problem with the list and for the web site , for that 
20:01 <_jenka_> we do not reply on you can contact Syatel imc to ask them for adding you to 
20:01 <_jenka_> imc palestine list , we do not access on it
20:01 <_jenka_> am sorry , after 2003 imc poaletsine has alot =of problem , internal and 
20:01 <_jenka_> international problem , so so most of the group inclouding me withrow
20:01 <_jenka_> cheers
20:02 <_ryan> yes, thats about right :)
20:02 <_shiar> what kind of problems?
20:02 <_ryan> bilal is stil very eager to contribute
20:02 <_ben_> so.. we are not simply talking about tech problems here?
20:02 <_ryan> none of it is tech problems
20:03 <_devlish> there is a big tech discussion to be had 
20:03 <_devlish> but this is not a problem 
20:03 <_ben_> so a new list will not solve those problems but will allow the process to continue
20:03 <_jenka_> ben: some of the history can be found on the discussion on the new-imc list archives
20:03 <_ryan> so, unfortunately i have to leave for 1/2 hour now
20:04 <_jenka_> btw ryan - there are several guys here in palestine who are really interested in learning sf-active in order to do tech for the site
20:04 <_shiar> just a short summmary would help us understand i guess
20:04 <_ryan> my big input is that i think imc-pal should be reconstructed into many smaller imc's which can be syndicated to one imc-pal 
20:05 <_jenka_> ben: the old imc was just a few people.  it was only around for a few months in 2002 .....
20:05 <_ryan> i think layout of palestine is perfect for a setup like that -- geographic and how the traditional movement there is already organized
20:05 <_devlish> hmm can we have that structure with sf active 
20:05 -!- saedb-imemc [...] has joined #palestine
20:05 <_ryan> devlish: yes
20:05 <_ryan> and ok i can help anyone with sfa but i gotta go
20:05 <_ryan> biab
20:05 <_saedb-imemc> am back, i had a small eror
20:05 <_ben_> ryan. would that address the internal conflicts or rsolve any of the inevitable problems that a controverisal site such has this will attract?
20:06 <_devlish> especailly the difficulty of getting from palce palce due to the israelis 
20:06 <_devlish> with id cards etc 
20:06 <_jenka_> ben: please read the proposal for the new imc-palestine, as it does address some of the inevitable problems that such a controversial site will attract
20:07 -!- Raad [...] has joined #palestine
20:07 <_devlish> so to cover stuff regional collectives would be great with equal input into a central pal page 
20:07 <_Raad> hey
20:07 <_devlish> hey : ) 
20:07 <_Raad> sorry its keep disconnecting
20:08 <_jenka_> proposal can be found here: http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/new-imc/2006-March/0316-or.html
20:08 <_Raad> its easy to found also on google
20:09 -!- Raad [...] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:09 <_saedb-imemc> Ĺ~XĹ~^Ĺ~XĹšĹ~XÄ~EĹ~X¨Ĺ~XĹ  Ĺ~X§ŎÂ~DĹŽÂ~DĹ~XĹ~_Ĺ~XĹ  Ĺ~X§ŎÂ~DĹ~XĹĄĹ~XÄ~EĹ~X¨ŎÂ~JĹ~XĹ  Ĺ~XĹĄĹ~X¨Ĺ~XÄ~E Ĺ~X§ŎÂ~DĹ~X¨Ĺ~XÄ~EĹŽÂ~FĹ~X§ŎÂ~EĹ~XĹš test
20:09 <_saedb-imemc> alright, works fine
20:10 -!- anarchist [...] has quit [Ping timeout: 612 seconds]
20:10 <_George-IMEMC> i can read your arabic
20:10 -!- guest-en [...] has joined #palestine
20:10 <_saedb-imemc> gr8
20:10 <_sabbah> can't read it here :(
20:11 <_jenka_> i can read saed's arabic typing too
20:11 <_guest-en> haam 
20:11 <_shiar> me too
20:11 -!- skidz [...] has joined #palestine
20:11 <_jebba> i can read saedb-imemc     Well, i should say i see arabic text....  looks cool at least ;)
20:11 <_George-IMEMC> guest-en is that Osama
20:11 -!- guest-en [...] has quit [Client Quit]
20:12 <_skidz> hey, sorry i'm late
20:12 <_skidz> this is rona
20:12 <_shiar> so basically the prob was consesual decision-making and monpolisation by some
20:12 <_devlish> hey : ) 
20:12 <_shadifadda> can anyone organize this chat, so we can know the points we%u2019re to discuss, and go point by point?
20:13 -!- na3neessh [...] has joined #palestine
20:13 <_na3neessh>  marhba 
20:14 <_jenka_> 1. new list: should there be a new list?  should it be called imc-ps-process?  who will administer?
20:14 <_skidz> marhabtein
20:14 <_devlish> I do not mind doing this 
20:14 <_jenka_> 2. regional collectives -- is this even a possibility?  maybe PNN can help?
20:14 <_jenka_> sorry, go ahead devlish
20:14  * jebba raises
20:14 <_jenka_> meen inte na3neessh?
20:15  * ftp has to leave now - devlish will update me
20:15 <_devlish> hm regional collectives should grow out of a pal project if needed 
20:15 -!- Raad [...] has joined #palestine
20:15 <_jenka_> re jebba
20:15 -!- ftp [...] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF)]
20:15 <_na3neessh> so   can  some  body   fell me   with  what  is  going  on 
20:15 <_na3neessh> jen    hello 
20:15 <_na3neessh> its  osama
20:16 <_Raad> sorry again for being disconnected
20:16 <_jenka_> ahlan wa sahlan habibi!
20:16 <_George-IMEMC> Osama, I wil fill you in
20:16 <_na3neessh> oka
20:16 <_skidz> jenka, maybe you should ocntinue
20:16 <_skidz> continue
20:16 <_Raad> OPs
20:16 <_devlish> so maybe one pal page which regions input into and then if there  are enough people from a region ie nablus then may be a nablus or balata project happens
20:16 <_jenka_> ok 3. who will host the server?  who will administer? 
20:17 <_skidz> ?
20:17 <_jenka_> 4. site editors - volunteers
20:17 <_skidz> ah, sorry
20:17 <_Raad> i think this is ok devlish since ism palestine endorse the proposal for imc palestine ism maintain pressence in most of the region in palestiune
20:17 <_jenka_> devlish: let's cover #1 - the list formation, then go to #2 the rego=ional question
20:18 <_devlish> ok 
20:18 <_Raad> ok  cool then
20:19  * jebba jumps in
20:19 <_jebba> I'm against a new list
20:20 <_devlish> why ?
20:20 <_jebba> Just use the old one, keeping the old admins so they don't feel left out, and we add a few people from here that want to admin
20:20 <_Raad> nope
20:20 <_jebba> otherwise its the "which list should i email too?"  and it gets messy. The old list should be fine and we alll just subscribe to it.
20:20  * jebba done
20:20 <_George-IMEMC> as I mentioned earlier, I agree to Jebba's suggestion
20:20 <_Raad> the old one should be change since this imc is a new imc and need a new people to be in
20:21 <_sabbah> jebba: old admins are not active for 3 years, why would you keep them?
20:21 <_Raad> otherwise we shouldnt call it new imc palestine
20:21 <_jebba> Raad, well, you /add/ people to it.
20:21 <_shadifadda> I guess, old List with new admins, if possible
20:21 <_jebba> sabbah, well, we could boot them too, but that's another whole process unto itself. Keep it simple.
20:22 <_jenka_> the old admins, Bilal and Lubna, are not here.  but they did express some interest in maintaining control over the old list. George, you have talked with both of them  -- what do you think?
20:22 <_sabbah> ok
20:22 <_Raad> im against belial being admin for the list
20:22 <_jenka_> the other problem with the old list is it is closed and fully moderated
20:22 <_George-IMEMC> both expressed interest, and Lubna said she has some more young Palestinians interested to contribute
20:23 <_jebba> i also, from experience, suggest the list be fully open.
20:23 <_skidz> is there a reason why if we have everyone as admins it will not work?
20:23 <_George-IMEMC> I am for an open list for members, moderated for nonmembers
20:23 <_skidz> also, i think there are good reasons for the list not to be open
20:23 <_skidz> that doesn't mean it cannot work
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20:23 <_jenka_> and this new proposal is to have a list that is open, with open archives, and unmoderated posting for members
20:24 <_jenka_> skidz: what are the reasons?
20:24 <_skidz> security/privacy
20:24 <_George-IMEMC> to avoide being added to spam lists, or not needed list,,
20:24 <_skidz> we've had these issues with imc israel with israeli security and i assume they won't be easier on the palestinians
20:24 <_jebba> skidz, let me assert that a closed list increases neither privacy nor security.
20:24 <_George-IMEMC> you need to be a member to post,
20:24 <_na3neessh> what about  geting  an infostructure do  so 
20:25 <_skidz> but we only have important lists closed
20:25 <_skidz> like admin
20:25 <_skidz> video, photo, etc. are open
20:25 <_Raad> i totaly agree with skidz
20:26 <_jebba> skidz, you cannot protect an indymedia mailing list from israeli (nor any) security force by having it "closed"
20:26 <_skidz> yes you can
20:26 <_jebba> heh
20:26 <_jebba> ...
20:26 <_skidz> if you only allow people you know in it, as much as you can
20:26 <_jebba> http://www.eff.org/legal/cases/att/
20:26 <_George-IMEMC> well, security guys can access as any member and do what they want to do
20:26 <_George-IMEMC> I do not think this is the issue
20:26 <_shiar_> transparency is *very* importnat for the process
20:27 <_skidz> we've had people's computers taken etc.
20:27 <_jebba> all your traffic is intercepted.  But I think I'm dragging us off topic, so i'll shut up now.
20:27 <_skidz> it is transparent if everyone interested is allowed in
20:27 <_George-IMEMC> transperancy is a must, no question,,
20:27 <_skidz> the problem with the old list was that people were getting kicked off
20:27 <_ryan> skidz :)
20:27 <_George-IMEMC> rules can be set, if there are no rules already
20:28 <_jenka_> proposal: we make an imc-ps-process list, as proposed earlier, make it an open, unmoderated (except for non-members) list, and add everyone from the CC: list
20:28 <_shiar_> how could transparent with a closed list
20:28 <_ryan> wait, open list?
20:28 <_shiar_> how could you be..
20:28 <_jenka_> i agree with shiar: this process should be transparent
20:28 <_ryan> does open list mean open archives that do not require a password to view?
20:28 <_Raad> right but at least u do what u should do then at least make harder to be broken
20:29 <_skidz> whoever wants to can ask the moderators
20:29 <_skidz> so it is only that people have to ask and therefore we can know how is looking - more or less
20:29  * shiar_ feels strongly about this to the extent of blocking a closed list prposal
20:29 <_skidz> sorry, who is looking
20:30 <_George-IMEMC> can somebody tell me what is wrong with an open unmoderated list for members.. and anybody can join
20:30 <_Raad> i think the admin list shouldnt be open 
20:30 <_skidz> so if bilal, raad, george, and jenka were admins one of them would have to approve, but htere are many setting etc.
20:30 <_skidz> i think we shold all be on the same page before we even discuss this
20:31 <_ryan> here is what i think -- a full discussion of what happened with the last imc-palestine would include discussion that should not be on an indymedia list
20:31 <_Raad> cool
20:31 <_ryan> for security reasons
20:31 <_Raad> aha
20:32 <_na3neessh> i  think though  am  not very much  sure of it is  this list   mean  that it should be  controlled  to certin extend   ,,, 
20:33 <_Raad> its not control i think we should seperate between members and admin
20:33 <_na3neessh> but teh  admin  will ahve   control 
20:34 <_Raad> not really
20:34 <_George-IMEMC> again, I want to say this again
20:34 <_George-IMEMC> my proposal is that the list is unmoderated for members, moderated for nonmembers, admins have to approve nonmember-messages
20:35 <_shiar_> which what all indy lists are like
20:35 <_sabbah> I agree with you George. and for security issues: if a hand from outside palestine can help, i'm all for it
20:36 <_ryan> for security reasons, the mailing list will not be a place we can talk about every issue from the past, and i imagine new issues that will come up
20:36 <_ryan> i could write something up which explains this
20:36 <_na3neessh> i think  that  reasonable 
20:36 <_ryan> but i am not in favor of a closed list because it could give a false sense of security
20:36 -!- shiar [...] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:36 <_ryan> but this issue contributed to some of the problems we had before with imc-pal
20:36 <_skidz> yeah, i'm not sure eveyrone here understands this stuff
20:36 <_skidz> yet
20:37 <_skidz> i think the way to progress with this whole situtation is to get a list up, a secure one, and go from there
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20:37 <_skidz> we can set up working group lists, site lists, whatever
20:38 <_George-IMEMC> I would assume that discussion on a list like this will not include something that we should be worried about if Israeli security reads it
20:38 <_skidz> you are wrong
20:38 <_skidz> george
20:38 <_George-IMEMC> why?
20:39 <_George-IMEMC> what could be the worse example?
20:39 <_na3neessh> i  agree  you  need to start some  were  and  see how its goes  and  aftr  that  we   will have  afoucous .....
20:39 <_Raad> so far what i know that the owner or the admin list is deffrent from the members one or the level shoulkd be diffrent
20:40 <_skidz> because they know who you know and what you are doing to the extent of how to get on your list
20:40 <_Raad> if we all can agree on somthing like that then things might be ok
20:40 <_devlish> the aims of this project should be transparency 
20:40 <_ryan> can i say that it is not just ISraeli security
20:40 <_ryan> certainly that is a big part of it
20:40 <_ryan> but also the us state department
20:41 <_devlish> open lists means that what is discussed is the admin and editorial, tech needs of the site surely 
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20:41 <_devlish> not any thing that would endanger any one 
20:41 <_Raad> transparency in terms of publishing or editoroial policy not regarding the admin list
20:41 <_ryan> sometimes the us state department has misunderstandings about doing work like this 
20:41 -!- pussy [...] has quit [Client Quit]
20:41 <_na3neessh> transarency    security  and all  will come  later  you  shlould  starta  and   i think  us  being there will give  us  idea  of  how  to  be  secure  and transbenac  and  the  rest  of it 
20:41 <_George-IMEMC> what will happen if the shabak or others know what we are talking about in the list,, what is the big deal?? let them know,, 
20:42 -!- skidz [...] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:42 -!- pussy [...] has joined #palestine
20:42 <_devlish> the presumption is that the site is for reporting of issues 
20:42 <_ryan> George-IMEMC: for instance, it could be illegal in the UK to send money or equipment to imc-pal
20:42 -!- skidz [...] has joined #palestine
20:42 <_George-IMEMC> Is that true? 
20:42 <_skidz> sorry lost it
20:42 <_ryan> of course
20:42 <_Raad> yes goeroge
20:43 <_George-IMEMC> well, a closed list will not protect us then
20:43 <_na3neessh> no its  not 
20:43 <_skidz> it's not going to stop them but it makes things a little more comfortable is all
20:43 <_Raad> cos now there is a new policy for sending money the banks outside looking for an addrss for the perosn u send to and here the bank should ask for some details
20:43 <_na3neessh> close  list  will atrckt more  security  agent to target   while an open  one  will secure us  i think 
20:43 <_ryan> a closed list is not protection
20:43 <_skidz> there are two ways
20:44 <_devlish> comfortable leads to careless writing 
20:44 <_George-IMEMC> and modersted leads to no transperancy,,,
20:44 <_George-IMEMC> so what is the solution?
20:44 <_Raad> but u r not closing the whole list 
20:44 <_devlish> if people know it is open then they will will write with awareness and this more protection for the project 
20:44 <_Raad> just admin list 
20:45 <_George-IMEMC> sounds reasonable to me
20:45 <_skidz> can someone write an explination of either so we're sure what we're talking about?
20:45 <_George-IMEMC> a welcoming e-mail can be generated when people join, telling them to be sensitive in their writing
20:45 <_Raad> nope
20:45 <_shadifadda> guys, how many of us are sure that their PCs include no Israeli troyan or whatever?
20:46 <_pussy> yeah
20:46 <_shadifadda> so I guess it is not something to talk about, but consider it as reality we live in
20:46 <_devlish> with guide lines of what is at risk in Palestine that is agreed by the collective 
20:46 <_George-IMEMC> seems like this to me
20:46 <_shadifadda> on the other hand, we can sleep well, as we're not to plan any assassination ;)
20:47 <_George-IMEMC> :p
20:47 <_devlish> well any  pc communication will be a problem 
20:47 -!- pussy [...] has quit [Quit: pussy]
20:47 <_devlish> if the israelis wanna read your mail or fuck any thing they will list or no list 
20:47 <_ryan> here are the options:
20:47 <_ryan> 1) a closed, encrypted list - this would be good protection but would be difficult to set up for everyone
20:48 <_George-IMEMC> or?
20:48 <_devlish> and lead to the project being inaccessable to new people 
20:48 <_ryan> 2) a closed list - this would be false protection and our discussions would have to be with security culture in mind
20:48 <_devlish> leading to samll collective and work overload for those involved 
20:48 <_ryan> 3) an open list - same as #2, our discussions would have to be "censored" by security culture
20:49 <_shadifadda> devlish, our objective I guess is to reach as many people. nope?
20:49 <_George-IMEMC> I guess Ryan's #3 is my favorite20:49  * shiar_ is in favour of #3
20:49 <_ryan> i think #2 is preferred -- we don't even want to be read by "israeli trolls" who then personally harrass, etc
20:49 <_na3neessh> idont   seee the  close    provide any   security  sorry   this   state of  paranoiaa is  bugring me
20:49 <_devlish> our objective is for people to be their own media
20:49 <_skidz> i guess we could have a general list for now and set up secure one as needed
20:50 <_skidz> that was more people are involved, assuming not everyone has to know where the server is etc
20:50 <_ryan> if it is #3, i won't use my real email address :) just because i dont want to be spammed forever by israeli's
20:50 <_devlish> and have a say in how they want things to be run 
20:50 <_George-IMEMC> let us get a sense using numbers,, please on this issue
20:50 <_devlish> sure you don't need to know where servers are to be involved 
20:51 <_devlish> maybe creat a mail  for the project 
20:51 <_Raad> ????????
20:51 <_na3neessh> ok   can i  aske  qustion 
20:51 <_na3neessh> pleas 
20:51 <_George-IMEMC> go ahead osama
20:51 <_na3neessh> what  is  this  list  for    what is  the reason  behinde  creating this  list 
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20:52 -!- shiar_ is now known as shiar
20:52 <_skidz> this list was for re-organizing locally
20:52 <_na3neessh> if  taht  is   teh  raeson  how  can  we   do  it   close   or  open  but  admin   ??????
20:52 <_skidz> following the new imc-palestine application
20:53 <_Raad> ?
20:53 <_na3neessh> if  we  do it   close  we  are  doing   teh  LTD thing ....while  open  but  moniterd  or  admin  will   allow  more acess a nd  be  more  secure   ,,,,so  can  we  deside on this 
20:54 <_devlish> ltd?
20:54 <_Raad> limited
20:54 <_na3neessh> thats  how  its  sound if its   lcoooos
20:54 <_George-IMEMC> again, I would go for #3,, and keep in mind some security culture
20:55  * shiar too
20:55 <_devlish> on uk sesitive list are closed and member ship based such as legal for example 
20:55 <_devlish> but process is open 
20:55 <_devlish> tech is open 
20:55 <_jenka_> jebba, ryan: is it possible to post a public archive, while blocking out everything after the @ in the poster's email address?
20:55 <_ryan> jenka_: yeah, we can set that up
20:56 <_Raad> then cool
20:57 <_na3neessh> thats  good 
20:57 <_George-IMEMC> sounds good to me
20:57 <_George-IMEMC> alright,, can we move on to other issues?
20:58 <_na3neessh> yes  pleas 
20:58 <_jenka_> then that is what i suggest: an open list, with open archives, and the email addresses blocked out (so no spammers)
20:58 <_jenka_> who will set up the list?
20:58 <_skidz> admins
20:59 <_ryan> i can make sure it happens
20:59 <_ryan> i can do it today
20:59 <_Raad> rayn can u update me in that
20:59 <_jenka_> can i suggest ghassan b (with imemc, in a non-leadership role, as boud suggested), raad
21:00 <_ryan> i need a list of email addresses to initially put on it
21:00 <_jenka_> as admins
21:00 <_Raad> cos im really so busy i suppose to leave palestine in three days so i might be out of reach for sometime
21:00 <_jenka_> ?
21:02 <_George-IMEMC> i can admin,, or devlish 
21:03 <_shadifadda> what are the responsibilities of the admin?
21:03 <_shadifadda> must be web-programmer?....
21:03 <_Raad> good question
21:03 <_ryan> shadifadda: no, it is easy
21:03 <_ryan> list admin only does work, mostly
21:03 <_ryan> some mail comes in and the list doesn't like it
21:03 <_jenka_> shadi: the admin, in a list like is being proposed (non-moderated, except for non-members) gets an email every once in a while saying 'do you want to approve this post?'
21:03 <_ryan> so you have to look at it to see if it is worthwhile
21:04 <_Raad> i dont think that he should be a web editor also can be 
21:04 <_jenka_> then you look at the post, and if you agree it should go on the list, click on the link provided and then publish it
21:05 <_jenka_> how about raad, shadi, george, devlish and osama?  as admins
21:05 <_Raad> ok we're talkin about the list not about the web right?
21:05 <_ryan> jenka_: George-IMEMC earlier said bilal@... included in the admin list, can i ask on his behalf to include him?
21:06 <_ryan> if only to make him feel like he is being invited to participate in the formation of the new imc-pal list?
21:06 <_skidz> yeah
21:06 <_jenka_> ryan: there was an objection raised about bilal, that he was moderator of the old list, and had been keeping the list closed.  but if george talked to him and thinks he won't close it off this time, then cool
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21:07 <_skidz> i think that as long as we all communicate well and stay involved it should be ok
21:07 <_George-IMEMC> i will talk to him again when he comes back,, 
21:07 <_skidz> and support adding bilal as administrator
21:07 <_ryan> jenka_: i dunno who raised that objection -- i think after a while the list was closed because no one was paying attention
21:07 <_jenka_> ryan: the list was closed from the beginning -- fully moderate i mean -- even posting from mebers had to be approved by the list moderators
21:08 <_shiar> can we move on pls?
21:08 <_Raad> nope
21:08 <_ryan> jenka_: hmm, i dont remember that -- there were a couple lists anyway for organizing, imc-palestine, imc-pal-volunteers, etc
21:10 <_na3neessh> how   long is  this  meeting  last for  ???????????
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21:10 -!- meramar [...] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC]
21:10 <_jenka_> yes, we have been here for two hours.  we should wrap it up
21:11 <_George-IMEMC> yallah guys, if the list took all this time, what about the web, publishing policy etc
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21:11 <_na3neessh> yes  pleas
21:11 <_na3neessh> so   can  we  move on 
21:11 <_skidz> we're not there yet and i don't see why we're talking about it without an approval from new-imc unless i missed it
21:11 <_skidz> i think the process is to create the list, see how to move on, go back to new-imc with something that can get approved
21:12 <_skidz> then start working on the site
21:12 <_jenka_> ryan: may i suggest that george or someon else here create the list -- in order to know the process.....so it is not someone far away doing it?  i think he also knows all the emails to add.....
21:12 <_George-IMEMC> I never did it, but jenka can help me
21:13 <_na3neessh>  i can  see  coming 
21:13 <_Raad> sorry folks i got somthing very urgent to do i will try to be back to continue and will do my bests but if not can somone email my the latest thing u got to?
21:13 <_jebba> http://newlist.indymedia.org/         <---- That's where you create a new mailing list   FYI
21:13 <_ryan> jenka_: thats fine -- i'm just a little unclear about how to mask the emails, if it is an admin option on the list ... if so, i gotta find it
21:13 <_George-IMEMC> I will try
21:13 <_ryan> jenka_: if not, i gotta make it :)
21:13 <_ryan> jenka_: but i'll check some other list i'm an admin of
21:14 <_Raad> i will be glad in helping doing the list just need the emails
21:14 <_na3neessh> cool
21:14 <_Raad> and also in any tech thing im happy to help
21:14 <_George-IMEMC> what shall we call it
21:14 <_jenka_> ryan: i have not seen it on the admin options (masking emails) on any of the indymedia lists - jebba, do you know?
21:14 <_George-IMEMC> IMC-PAl?
21:15 <_shiar> i think it's "mass subscription" in "members"
21:15 <_jebba>  There is "obscure_addresses" optoin, but that may just be for anti-spam, so the email addresses may be human-readable.   Not certain.
21:16 <_jenka_> so for admins: george, raad, shadi, osama and bilal?
21:16 <_jenka_> hmm...no women....
21:16 -!- shiar [...] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:16 <_Raad> thats cool george
21:16 <_Raad> again sorry i should go now
21:16 <_Raad> please email me and let me know in what i can help to set this thing up
21:16 <_Raad> caio for all
21:16 -!- Raad [...] has quit [Quit: Raad]
21:17 <_jenka_> imc-pal sounds fine
21:17 <_George-IMEMC> I will suggest Lubna to be added to admins
21:17 <_Sabbah_> jenka_" well, since I don't know any of the listed names, I can't say yes or no... but looks fine :)
21:18 <_saedb-imemc> ok, i will aslo admin the list21:18 <_George-IMEMC> that is one more male,
21:18 <_skidz> yeah i think whoever past the three main reps for each group
21:18 <_jenka_> hehhe.....
21:19 <_jenka_> then lubna also
21:20 <_na3neessh> cool    how  do  we  keep  in touch 
21:20 <_George-IMEMC> through e-mail
21:20 <_na3neessh> is  theer  any  more  fartther meetings 
21:20 <_jenka_> osama: on the list of course!  once george creates it
21:20 <_na3neessh> yes  is   by this  weekend 
21:21 <_ryan> well, let's just set it up and then we can discuss list-related issues on there :)
21:21 <_ryan> we can at least do THAT in the open
21:21 <_na3neessh> ill  be   more than  happy  to what  ever  i can  ,,, let me  knwo 
21:21 <_jenka_> maybe we can meet again next week.....but i don't want it to be too much inconvenience for anyone
21:22 <_skidz> no more irc meetings please
21:22 <_na3neessh> i have  to  dash offnow 
21:22 <_na3neessh> any more  urgent issues 
21:22 <_jenka_> hey jebba - who do we talk to about posting an arabic translation of the newlist.indymedia.org page?
21:23 <_na3neessh>    if  ther  is any more meeting  agenda  and  time  pleas   ......and  let us  nit  leav it  going  forever 
21:23 <_na3neessh> salaamaat
21:24 <_jebba> jenka_, I'm not certain, but you could ask in #listwork
21:24 <_jenka_> ok so maybe we just leave it at that -list creation by george, list admins george, raad, osama, bilal, saed, shadi and lubna......and discuss the rest of the issues on the list, once created.  tayyib?
21:27 -!- shiar [...] has joined #palestine
21:28 <_shiar> sorry i kicked the laptop :P
21:28 <_shiar> did i miss a lot?
21:28 -!- shadifadda [...] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)]
21:29 <_ryan> can we leave this channel open? it will be more useful as we start working on getting the tech side of things set up
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21:30 <_jenka_> ryan: ok but boud should op some folx so the topic can be changed at least.....and boud is gone
21:32 <_ryan> hmm i can register it maybe?
21:32 <_jenka_> ok
21:32 <_ryan> hm yeah
21:32 <_ryan> everyone has to leave first :)
21:32 <_ryan> or we wait for boud to do it
21:32 <_jenka_> i think everyone is gone.  meeting closed?
21:33 <_George-IMEMC> ??
21:33 <_Sabbah_> is it, ok... nice meeting u all :)
21:33 <_jenka_> i'm asking - what u think george?
21:34 <_shiar> ok then, nice to see you all and keep up the good work :)
21:34 <_jebba> I'll keep lurking in this channel. When boud returns, everyone can be made Ops or something so we can change #topic
21:35 -!- Sabbah_ [...] has left #palestine []
21:39 <_George-IMEMC> I am creating the list now
21:41 <_skidz> cool
21:42 <_shadifadda> take care everyone, ya3tiku alf 3afi :)
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21:58 <_na3neessh> shadi 
21:58 <_na3neessh> is  shadi  feda  still there 
21:59 <_na3neessh>  could any body  give  shadis  email 
21:59 <_na3neessh> or  phone  numbe r
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22:07 <_shiar> hey Alster :)
22:09 -!- Alster [...] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
22:09 -!- Alster_ is now known as Alster
22:12 <_shiar> George-IMEMC: how is the list creating going?
22:27 -!- na3neessh [...] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC (EOF)]
22:33 -!- saedb-imemc [...] has quit [Quit: Leaving]

-- BouD - 14 Apr 2006
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