*: mike (~mike@h24-67-116-97.cg.shawcable.net) har just g\xE5tt med i kanalen

mike: hey, sorry i'm a little late

Anton: hi

Anton: seems people wants to forget these meetings, huh?

mike: just us 2 for now?

mike: yeah

Anton: anyway.. i finished mu sketch. did you see it?

Anton: http://andreasson.org/Active2/index.html

mike: no not yet, i'll take a peek now

*: doug (~doug@66-65-66-64.nyc.rr.com) har just g\xE5tt med i kanalen

Anton: hi doug

doug: Hi guys

mike: hi doug

Anton: mike: you can wget the new stuff there if you want to

doug: Just checking out the GUI - looks nice

Anton: thanx =)

mike: hmm...netscape 4 doesn't want to render it on solaris...stupid netscape

Anton:

mike: the top bar looks nice, though

Anton: http://andreasson.org/Active2/groups.html

Anton: try some other maybe..

mike: that one works

mike: looks good!

Anton: ok, fixed the main page too I think (missing :s)

mike: is there an agenda for the meeting?

mike: yup it works now

Anton: hm.. no nothing posted to the list yet..

Anton: but I think we should try to work out some time schedule for prioritized stuff to do..

mike: looks good

mike: i think we should try to get a more-robust proof-of-concept implementation done

mike: then we can evaluate what needs more design, what doesn't work at all etc.

Anton: seems clever

mike: i wanted to have more done by this week. my computer is still in poor shape, though

mike: i did start looking at the cheetah template stuff, and tried a few.

mike: seemss very nice

doug: I think we could continue working on the GUI, as a way of finalizing requirements.

mike: doug: yes

Anton: the gui is designed to take use of modules and templates (e.g. each "colored menu title" is its own table..)

doug: How are the attachments working?

doug: Can they be translated into multiple languages?

Anton: every repetition of data would be a peice of cake from now on..

mike: attachments?

Anton: wel.. my fault

Anton: as you see I chosed "groups" instead of "filters" (as they sound like features)

doug: Attachments (included media)

mike: oh

doug: Groups is a good word - maybe 'working groups'?

Anton: and i chosed attachments instead of related media/articles/whatever..

Anton: i now this is something we can argue more on..

mike: Anton: gui-wise, we should put in things which might not be used all the time, but which could foreseeable be useful just to help evaluate whether our backend design can handle it easily...

Anton: ok.. like User Settings etc?

doug: If we're following NewsML then all attachments would be content items...

doug: And hence available in multiple languages.

Anton: yeah, i haven't looked much at NewsML so I have probably forgot a lot of Meta Data fields in ./publish.html

mike: Anton: yes, or weirder things like links to everything conceivable (i.e. authors, other-media-by-this-author, ...?)

doug: The 'article' is just a collection of 'attachments' (content items).

Anton: mike: yeah.. and Sortings of data (via clicking on the title) and placements of comments (inline/separate) and where to store these settings etc..

doug: You could work this out in the gui by having the main content area contain always contain one of the 'attachments'. The 'main article' is just a content item.

Anton: http://andreasson.org/Active2/publish.html

Anton: i added a Queue there.. seemed like Good Idea to me

doug: Sorry, I didn't realize we were going page by page through the gui.

Anton: doug: we weren't

Anton: just eager to show you the stuff while it's hot =)

doug: Oh. My previous coments were about http://andreasson.org/Active2/news1.html

Anton: ok, now i see more what you meant - yeah, of course the main Article is one of the Story's Content items.. maybe this should be more clear in the gui..

mike: is the Queue supposed to be media that's been uploaded?

Anton: no, about to.. well .. you decide

doug: How do you upload media?

Anton: via the publish page.. (?)

mike: Anton: the translations on news1 might take up a lot of room the way they are (if there's lots); maybe a pick-list or just a smaller list (``Translations: DE, EN'')

mike: Anton: i don't know. having both would be useful (i.e. pending uploads plus stuff already uploaded this session by that user)

doug: This translation list could just appear in the main content area linking to the translations of the content item you're viewing.

Anton: hm.. you mean if the link list to the right gets longer than the text in the middle..?

mike: doug: that would be good, too

Anton: mike: ok, more like a status bar there in the q?

mike: Anton: no, i mean you have it like a newswire-thing, so if there's 10 translations, that's a lot of vertical space

mike: Anton: yes. although it could stay in the same place as now, or maybe just above the ``Article:'' table

mike: anyway, that's pretty minor

mike: really what we need at this point is features

mike: how they look/where they are on the page isn't really important

mike: sorry for the sidetrack

Anton: http://andreasson.org/Active2/features.html

Anton: (htere was a broken link on the front page.. sorry)

doug: Oh, now I see how you upload, but how do you specify that something's a translation of something else?

Anton: doug: good point.. missed that

Anton: should we have a simple select menu for that? Article|Comment|Translation|... ?

mike: doug: yes, and how do you specify that a picture is to be linked to a article? in the ``add content'' section?

Anton: you see.. now the questions arise..

mike: really, any Content currently uploaded should be linkable to a story

Anton: how do we link afterwards? after publishing?

doug: I think this 'publish' page has to be broken into two pages.

mike: ...so one should be able to specify any filekey as linked Content

doug: First you create/edit and 'article', then you add the content to it.

mike: Anton: well, the Article is metadata, right? So the author should be able to link any Content to it -- i think allowing editing of stories was something lots of people wanted, so the author should be able to link more Content in any time they like

mike: doug: yes

mike: Anton: there should be a way to say ``this is a new version of Content X'', too

doug: Mike: are you saying that content can be associated with multiple articles?

mike: that is, when uploading some Content, one should be able to (optionally) specify that it is really just a new version of

mike: doug: yes

Anton: of course.. i missed this in my design.. i just have a hard time visualising that right now.. maybe a fast idea would be to have "paste the filekey into this field" as a primary step..?

doug: Mike: this would get very messy

mike: doug: (so a picture could be used in multiple articles)

doug: Mike: why is that a requirement?

mike: doug: well, there couldn't be a ``browse'' feature...

mike: doug: it's not, really; nice-to-have, but easy to do in the backend, so why not?

mike: there doesn't have to be an interface for it, i guess...

doug: Because it forces the user to specify filekeys of content items in order to place them in articles.

mike: doug: well, only if the Content has been uploaded in a different session

mike: here's how I would make it work:

mike: 1. the user says ``i want to make an Article''

doug: If we only have content items in one article then they can just be associated by the fact that they were created while editing that article.

mike: 2. they get to a content-upload seciont

mike: 3. they upload all the Content they want

mike: 4. it will all be presumed to be part of the Article they're working on right now...

mike: 5. however, a couple weeks later they find another picture for the story

mike: 6. so they go back to their Article, click ``edit'' (enter credentials, etc.) then they can upload/associate more Content

mike: for ``expert'' users, there could be an opportunity to just enter filekeys...

doug: We should be displaying the content that's already in the article and just allow them to edit THAT.

mike: so, for most users it would ``look'' like Content was just associated with one article at upload-time

mike: ...but people who've read more can save time uploading things if there's already pictures/mp3s/videos they want to link to

Anton: ok, it all falls into place for me now.. the thing is just to make this adding more obvious than the filekey scenario and a way to "browse"..

mike: (also, we could offer the opporunity to ``browse'': there could be a ``choose content from another Article'' link...)

Anton: gotta think more on this..

mike: Anton: yes, browsing would be hard

doug: Well, they should be linking to the articles instead of directly to the media. I don't think it's good to allow pulling media out of context.

mike: another option: when viewing some Content (a picture, say), there could be a link like ``put this picture in MyFavourites''

mike: ...then, when constructing Articles in the future, people could choose Content from their Favourites...

mike: doug: context would be preserved by links

mike: ``This picture also appears in these stories: X, Y, Z'' ?

mike: ...or similar

doug: For each bit of media?

Anton: the whole site is about browsing.. i'd say we present the filekey very visible at the bottom/top of each article and describe how to use it in the edit section. at least for now.. a separate browsing in Edit mode is not a Good Thing IMHO..

mike: sure

mike: if one is viewing an ``Article'', then that's the context they're in

Anton: yes

mike: if they click on a picture, now they're viewing Content in a different context, and might like to see a list of where that Content appears

doug: Anton: but we already have a gui with separate browsing and editing interfaces

Anton: but that's just the Related media section on the right hand, right?

Anton: (to mike that was)

mike: Anton: it will probably be (or at least could be) in the URL: http://.../article/VERSION/filekey

mike: Anton: yes, it could be. that probably makes sense

Anton: how do Comments behave then? new comments for each version?

mike: so, the ``related media'' for a picture is the Articles its linked to...

Anton: yes

mike: Anton: comments would link to the Article

doug: Yes, comments are part of the article, not the content items

mike: (although if someone comments on some Content directly -- if we allow that -- like a picture, then yes it would be version-specific)

Anton: you mean Story now..?

mike: is there a difference between Story and Article?

doug: They are the same in my lexicon.

Anton: hm.. Story is what you get at Presentation Time..?

Anton: Article could be Text or Media, right?

mike: Anton: oh, okay.

mike: Anton: no, an Article is meta-data

Anton: gaah.. sorry :]

mike: Content can be Text (Picture, Video, etc.)

doug: Content item can be text or media...

mike: so an Article is just bacsically a list of Content

Anton: ok.. I think I have an old Lexicon in my head

doug: The bar on the right of the article page is a way to nvigate the various content items in an article

Anton: deal.

mike:

doug: sorry 'navigate'

Anton: doug: ok

mike: Anton: so comments are just more Content linked to an Article...

doug: Each of these content items can be available in different versions and languages, the navigation for these should be in the main part of the page.

Anton: so, what's up to me til next time is to present an updated proposal of .. what? Editing Articles .. more?

mike: creating articles needs work, yes. also, an interface to associate new Content with existing Articles (i.e. editing Articles)

Anton: doug: ok, you don't like the Translation section currently at hand?

mike: ...and a way to say that Content X is a newer version of Content Y

Anton: Ah! it's not obvious that it's a new translation for each Content of the main section .. i get it now

doug: Anton: I don't think it's clearly representing that it's the content items that are being translated/versioned.

Anton:

mike: doug have you looked at webware or cheetah templates yet?

doug: We have quite a lot to tackle if we're really allowing versioning AND different languages. There will be different translations of different versions!

Anton: mike: would you support a 2-step Publishing page?

Anton: doug: true..

doug: Mike: no haven't heard of them. Send URLs!

mike: Anton: yes

mike: doug: they're on the wiki, too...

mike: http://cheetahtemplate.org

mike: just a sec, can't remember webware

Anton: webware.sf.net ?

mike: http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Devel/ActiVe2

mike: Anton: yes, that's it

doug: Python?

mike: doug: yes, both

mike: cheetah works with webware (but doesn't require it)

mike: webware works as CGI, with mod_python or with a native mod_webware (experimental)

Anton: i'd love to be able to program Python :[

doug: I thought we had decided long ago on PHP?

Anton: ..but I can't even simple er exps..

mike: Anton: you'll learn some if we use cheetah templates

Anton: reg exps

mike: doug: i don't think we've decided on templating yet..

Anton: mike: hope so

mike: i thought we had decided on python for a first implementation of the backend...

doug: I thought we decided to use PHP for everything.

Anton: what's your to-do list til next time then? ;P

Anton: doug: hm.. no, can't rememer that..

doug: It was before the active2 list was created, back on web coders I think.

mike: i will look at webware, and make a real cheetah example

mike: (probably using one of anton's pages)

mike: if there are other candidates for a templating system? maybe doug can make a php example of anton's stuff and we can decide which is more clear/easier to hack/etc.

doug: There were a lot of good reasons that were presented for choosing just ONE language and also for that language being PHP.

mike: from what i've looked at so far, cheeteh is very good at separating backend stuff from interface stuff...

mike: PHP4 should be avoided; it's not free-software

mike: doug: we can't make the backend in php, can we?

Anton: doug: PHP3 then? PHP4 is not considered free anymore..

mike: (that is, the filekey-finding stuff, etc...)

Anton: perl is the only alternative to most back-end stuff IMHO

doug: Mike: sure, the whole thing could easily be done in PHP

doug: Anton: I'm not sure 'free' matters. PHP4 is freely and plentifully available.

Anton: you can't create a good load balanced in php-only..

doug: The highest priority has to be ease of use for people trying to install and configure Active2

mike: doug: ``free'' matters just as much for PHP as for an operating system...

mike: doug: agreed

Anton: hm.. i think we've agreed on that..

mike: doug: and also for programmers/designers to be able to modify things easily

Anton: i just don't see why Python blocks this?

mike: that is, it should be very maintainable

mike: IMO, python is better at that...

mike: the PHP i've looked at didn't make me happy... although i haven't looked at very much

mike: is PHP3 object-oriented? or just procedural?

doug: Mike: maybe so, but I've never seen Python preinstalled and PHP4 is on many machines these days.

Anton: doug: that's not a real argument, is it?

mike: doug: well, it's easy to install...

mike: and comes with Debian and RedHat default installs

mike: (IIRC)

mike: I think we should avoid PHP4 due to it's lack of freedom

doug: Maybe I just don't know enough about Python.

Anton: me neither

mike: there's a great tutorial at python.org

mike: go to the ``documentation'' section

doug: One of the problems with Python is the lack of programmers.

Anton: but it kicks ass as far as i've understood it

mike: IMO, it should be used by all CPSC departments to teach OO and programming in general

mike: doug: i disagree; there's far more programmers than PHP, IME

mike: doug ...or do you mean developers of the actual engine?

mike: python is supported by a Dutch university and the Python Foundation

doug: Well, there seemed to be more PHP than Python programmers willing to work on this project when we were first discussing it.

doug: I gotta take a break and walk my dog - he's crying for a pee.

Anton: doug: i\xE4m not sre that's the case now anyway.. at least not on our meetings.

mike: oh. the two guys from victoria ar both keen on python, i believe

mike: doug: i've got to go soon, too; just on lunch...

Anton: shall we sum up some?

Anton: mike, you type fast

mike: okay, let's get some proposals for templating systems (i.e. cheetah, PHP are proposed right now) and then see which are better-looking to everyone

doug: Anton: we need to make the article display page reflect the true state of content items, translations and versions.

mike: high priority is ease of use for designers

mike: next is probably ease of maintainability/hacking potential

mike: Anton: heh. maybe i should upgrade to dvorak and see what happens

Anton: dvorak?

doug: And the article editing pages should be broken down into 3 - article editing page, content edit page, and content item edit page.

mike: dvorak vs. qwerty for a keyboard layout

Anton: ;P

mike: dvorak is supposd to be faster to type because the keys are put is purposely good positions instead of purposly bad ones

Anton: doug: content editing?

mike: Anton: well, versioning: ``this content is a newer version fo this other content''

doug: Content editing = placing new content in an article and having links to edit existing content.

Anton: ah. isn't that easy to tell just by the sate?

Anton: (to mike)

mike: Anton: state of...?

Anton: date

mike: oh

doug: Also the group editing screen needs a way to create a list of links to other groups.

mike: well, yes, we could use date-based versioning

Anton: doug: i'll see what i can do..

mike: but still, how is the system to know if some random new content is a newwer version of some other content?

mike: lets say a video which has been re-edited an put in a different format...

doug: Mike: this would be clear if you had content item editing pages.

mike: doug: oh, yes, i see...

doug: Each version could appear there.

mike: doug: yes, that sounds good. a later-dated version would then be considered ``newer''... right?

doug: On the group editing page too, we should have a way to create multiple lists of links to articles, not just the one implied here.

doug: Okay, I really have to go now - he's jumping around the room.

mike: Anton: can you also post links to your GUI in the Active2HackingSummary node on the wiki?

Anton: i'm far too tired now (have been sitting with the gui for 10+ hours now so I'll just read the logs after I've digested some energy and see what I can make of it..

Anton: mike: sure

mike: doug: okay, thanks for the meeting

Anton: and the logs.. i log

doug: Anton, I'd be happy to help you with the GUI if you'd like. I've got a lot of experience building these sorts of interfaces.

doug: Bye guys!

mike: bye all

Anton: doug: cool, we could email eachother

Anton: bye!

*: mike har l\xE4mnat IRC (Client Exit: [BX] bb bbba bbbba bbbitchx bitchx!!!)

Loggfil st\xE4ngd vid: 02-05-29 22.08.03