IMC Tech > Meetings

Meetings: 01 Nov 03




Saturday, November 1, 2003 at 8pm GMT, on [ irc HowTo ] Check for local time

Roll Call

Please note whether you plan to attend the meeting:

Name Will You Attend? Notes
  Yes Maybe No  
patrick X      
ski X      
pseudopunk   X   can't come at 16gmt
chrisc X     TWiki tables do my head in...
your name here     X I may sleep...
your name here   X   I may...
your name here   X   I may...
your name here   X   I may...
your name here   X   I may...
your name here   X   I may...
your name here   X   I may...


 . proposal on rackmount server:

Stallman related proposals
 . hosting at caylx:

 . status of server donation
 Migrating sites
 . who needs to be migrated
 . contacting
 . change in code-base
 . issues of redesign holding up migration
 . migration fundraising, stallman, bame, calyx
 . where to migrate people
 . server setup
 . OS holy war

some related URLs:

Hope to see you there :]

IRC Logs

15:56 <@micah> we starting in 5 minutes?
15:57 < stefani> 4
15:57 <@micah> 3
15:57 <@micah> are we only going to talk about stallman today?
15:57 <@micah> or are we talking about other things? (ie. agenda?)
15:59 <@micah> anyone else alive in here except stefani and myself?
15:59 < chris_msp> I'm alive
15:59 < chris_msp> I'm just excited to be at a tech meeting =)  
15:59 -!- Zapata [irc@localhost] has joined #meeting
15:59 <@micah> ah great :)
15:59  * pabs is just here to gawk at geeks
15:59 < chris_msp> I don't have anything to say except for about stallman
15:59 <@micah> ok, lets pull some stallman agenda items togteher
16:00  * chrisc is also alive
16:00 <@micah> if you ask me, it is the highest priority, if we have enough time to talk about other things then ew can
16:00 <@micah> was there a wiki agenda generated?
16:01 <@micah> i know there were a number of proposals that we need to talk about
16:01 -!- ekes [irc@localhost] has joined #meeting
16:01  * stefani shivers from cold house.
16:01 <@micah> anyone have links to those?
16:01 <@micah> one was a hardware proposal
16:01 <@micah> another had to do with caylx in NYC
16:01 < chrisc>
16:02 < stefani> patrick had items in his email
16:02 <@micah> ok, so agenda:
16:02 <@micah> . Stallman related proposals
16:03 <@micah> . migrating sites
16:04 <@micah> huh, nice meeting page
16:04 <@micah>
16:04 -!- micah changed the topic of #meeting to: agenda
16:05 -!- bame_ [] has joined #meeting
16:05 <@micah> under migrating sites I can think of the following subtopics
16:06 -!- bunny [irc@localhost] has joined #meeting
16:06 <@micah> who needs to be migrated
16:06 <@micah>   contacting
16:06 <@micah>   change in code-base
16:06 <@micah>   issues of redesign holding up migration
16:06 <@micah>   where to migrate people
16:06 <@micah>    new server setup
16:06 <@micah> anyone else want to come up with agenda items?
16:07  * chrisc wonders how many sites need migrating
16:07  * micah still is waking up
16:07  * stefani give micah some of her coffee
16:07  * bunny observes like a poet
16:07 < bame_> :-) linux or freebsd on the servers I'm donating :-)
16:08 <@micah> heh
16:08 -!- ekes_mobile [irc@localhost] has joined #meeting
16:08 -!- ekes [irc@localhost] has left #meeting [Client Exiting]
16:08 <@micah> can someone look for the related proposal links?
16:08 <@micah> here is what I have for the agenda so far
16:08 <@micah> Stallman related proposals
16:08 <@micah> migrating sites
16:08 <@micah>   who needs to be migrated
16:08 <@micah>   contacting
16:08 <@micah>   change in code-base
16:08 <@micah>   issues of redesign holding up migration
16:08 <@micah>   where to migrate people
16:09 <@micah>   server setup
16:09 <@micah>   OS holy war
16:09 < bame_> +status of server donation
16:10  * stefani will not suggest Win2003
16:10 <@micah> odd, two of the people who comitted to being here on the wiki aren't here
16:10 <@micah> bame_: I'll put that under the stallman related proposals?
16:10 < chris_msp> proposal on hosting at calyx:
16:10 < bame_> k
16:11 < chris_msp> proposal on rackmount server stuff:
16:11 <@micah> chris_msp: great :)
16:12 <@micah> ok, anything else?
16:12 < bame_> fundraising connected with migration
16:12 <@micah> bame_: where do you want to put that on the agenda?
16:12 -!- ski [irc@localhost] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:13 < bame_> around 'where' perhaps
16:13 <@micah> ok
16:13  * chrisc wonders if it would be worth me adding this agenda to the wiki page
16:13 <@micah> here is what I have
16:13 <@micah> chris_msp: if you'd like 
16:13 <@micah> Stallman related proposals
16:13 <@micah>   . hosting at caylx:
16:13 <@micah>
16:13 <@micah>   . proposal on rackmount server:
16:13 <@micah>
16:13 <@micah>   . status of server donation
16:13 <@micah> Migrating sites
16:13 <@micah>   . who needs to be migrated
16:14 <@micah>   . contacting
16:14 <@micah>   . change in code-base
16:14 <@micah>   . issues of redesign holding up migration
16:14 <@micah>   . migration fundraising
16:14 <@micah>   . where to migrate people
16:14 <@micah>   . server setup
16:14 <@micah>   . OS holy war
16:14 <@micah> here are some related URLs:
16:14 <@micah>
16:14 <@micah>
16:14 <@micah> if nobody has any objections, I think we should get the meeting started so we can finish it sometime :)
16:15 <@micah> I am concerned because none of the people involved in putting together the proposals are here
16:15 < chris_msp> this is a valid concern
16:15 < chris_msp> can anyone contact them?
16:16 < stefani> i have no conact info for patrick.
16:16 <@micah> the internet is acting kind of weird today, I couldn't access an east coast server due to network issues
16:16 < chrisc> ski seemed to know:
16:17 <@micah> has everyone read those proposals?
16:17 < chris_msp> ski was here a minute ago but I think got cut off
16:17 < chris_msp> I emailed patrick
16:18 < chrisc>
16:18 <@micah> should we put the rackmount server proposal before the hosting proposal?
16:19 < bame_> works for me -- I need to destroy the network I'm using sometime soon :-)
16:19 < stefani> i agree
16:19 -!- ski [irc@localhost] has joined #meeting
16:19 <@micah> ok
16:20 <@micah> then those two are just switched around
16:20 <@micah> ski: are you here?
16:20 < ski> i am now... stupid connection... hi yall, what'd i miss?
16:20 <@micah> ski: we just put the agenda together
16:20  * chris_msp was just calling ski
16:20 <@micah> and were wondering were all the people were who said they'd be here on the wiki and who wrote the proposals
16:20 <@micah> :)
16:21 <@micah> ski: as chrisc pointed out:
16:21 <@micah>
16:21 <@micah> should we get started then on the first one?
16:21 <@micah> people are invited to respond 
16:21 < chris_msp> I don't think he is
16:22 <@micah> chris_msp: ?
16:22 < ski> mtoups - you here?
16:22 < ski> hopefully me & matt can filli n the details on calyx and the rackmount
16:22 < chris_msp> sorry micah: I was saying mtoups has not been active this morning
16:23 < ski> hm
16:23  * ski will wake mtoups up
16:23 < stefani> lets go.
16:23 <@micah> yeah, I've got a lot of other things to do today
16:23 -!- micah changed the topic of #meeting to: proposal on rackmount server
16:24 < ski> perhaps we can start with an overview of what's going on with stallman since matt & patrick aren't here and i was late?
16:24 < bame_> stallman's later on the agenda now iirc
16:25 <@micah> well is there anyone who doesn't know what this is about?
16:25 <@micah> speak now
16:25  * chrisc thinks it's about moving all sites off stallman?
16:25 -!- taggart [] has joined #meeting
16:25  * bame_ raises his seattle geek friend
16:26 <@micah> bame_: you raise your geek friend?
16:26  * ski calling mtoups
16:26  * taggart calls
16:27 -!- quinten [] has joined #meeting
16:27 < ski> hey q
16:27 < bame_> taggart and I discussed hosting stallman fwiw -- on to the agenda?
16:28 <@micah> bame: sure, do you want to give us an overview of that discussion now?
16:29  * micah blinks
16:29 < ski> are we doing rackmount or the other thing?
16:29 < bame_> sure
16:29 < bame_> we have a colo here in fort collins who's looking for business, that means $$ but probably reasonable
16:29 < bame_> we already host one box there
16:29 < bame_> unfortuantely i don't have a lot of time to work the details here so i think it's unrealistic
16:30  * ski ready to talk about rackmounts.
16:30 < mtoups> hola
16:30 <@micah> ok
16:30 < taggart> I have a question about the url in the topic
16:30 <@micah> lets talk about the rackmount server proposal then
16:30 <@micah> taggart: go ahead
16:30 -!- elfo [irc@localhost] has joined #meeting
16:30 < elfo> hello
16:30  * elfo is lurking
16:30  * ski raises for after taggart
16:30 <@micah> for those who just joined, the agenda is here:
16:30 <@micah>
16:31 < elfo> tks
16:31 <@micah> except it should be noted that we switched the two top proposals around
16:31  * micah raises after ski
16:31 <@micah> taggart?
16:31 < taggart> micah: the proposal is to just move global and not the other sites that stallman hosts to the new machines?
16:32  * micah had a question about that too
16:32  * ski asks everyone to mark the end of their comment so we can move along, we're already uber late
16:32 -!- Mat_IMC_Arg_away is now known as Mat_IMC_Arg
16:32 < taggart> I think that might be ok but we need a plan for the other sites
16:33 < Mat_IMC_Arg> hi
16:33 <@micah> I am wondering why the proposal is about moving sites on dega/staughton and not stallman, and why only NYC IMC and www.indy
16:33 <@micah> <end>
16:33  * micah points to ski
16:33 < taggart> <end> :)
16:33 < ski> ok
16:33 < ski> initially the plan was to move dega and staughton sites to these machines
16:33 < ski> but then we got word that stallman was going to become unavailable
16:34 < ski> so, now the idea is just populating sites anywhere of stallman we can, including these two machines
16:34 < ski> at lesat, that's my take on it
16:34 < ski> it should be noted that in the url where the specs are discussed, it doesn't include the whopping 72G SCSI drives bame threw in em
16:34 < ski> err 76TY
16:34 < ski> 76G
16:35 < ski> <end>
16:35  * micah raises
16:35 <@micah> oh, I'm next anyways
16:35  * ski wonders who's moderating?
16:35 <@micah> so how critical is it to move things off of staughton? It seems to me we could get more sites from stallman onto this server if we were not pushing staughton on there at the same time
16:35  * mtoups raises
16:35 <@micah> it would also eat up time do to staughton at the same time, we have only 31 days left
16:36 <@micah> <end>
16:36 <@micah> go ahead mtoups
16:36 < mtoups> ok my thoughts on staughton/rackmounts/other servers
16:36 <@micah> if you know you are next in the stack, don't wait to talk :)
16:36 < mtoups> staughton is an old PC that quinten and i rescued from the trash
16:36 < mtoups> it happens to be very cool for such a machine
16:36 < mtoups> we got a second cpu for it
16:37 < mtoups> but the fact is it doesn't have hardware raid or anything that we've learned is necessary for a longterm high traffic server
16:37 < mtoups> and i've been able to witness the incredible IMC-effect on hard drive failures already
16:37 < mtoups> BUT
16:37 < mtoups> its a good box for now
16:37 < mtoups> so i see staughton (and dega for dada sites, to some extent) as ideal for "staging areas"
16:37 < mtoups> a place where we can migrate sites to a new codebase
16:38  * micah raises
16:38 < mtoups> then once we've got things stabalized, long term wise we can migrate them to fancy rackmount boxes with raid and all the other fancy stuff that pro colocation include
16:39 < mtoups> and one of my dreams has been to eventually move everything off of stallman and then do a clean reinstall of that box, because its a mess now but a very nice set of hardware
16:39  * chris_msp raises
16:39  * bame_ raises
16:39 < mtoups> so, that's my thought about staughton and other pc systems as best as i can articulate them having just awoken
16:39 < mtoups> and so far using staughton to migrate sites to sf-active and do sf-active devel has worked quite well
16:40 < mtoups> and we'd like to continue doing it (the staughton techs) and welcome people joining ing
16:40 < mtoups> ok <end> :)
16:40 < mtoups> (side note: the IMC-effect is a term i just coined about how indymedia hard drives have a 10x high probability of failing because they're IMC hard drives, micah and stefani know what i mean i think)
16:41  * elfo is pretty new, knows a little bit about linux and stuff like this (linuxist since '97) and he likes to dive into tech stuff.... so if you want me.. i'm here
16:41 < elfo> <end>
16:41 < elfo> (side note: i wanted to ask you about IMC-effect :)) 
16:41 <@micah> I think it is good that you've identified the hardware issues related to staughton/dega in terms of their long term hosting capabilities. In terms of moving things to stallman it seems to me more critical to deal with that issue than it is to try and takcle the shabbyness of staughton at this time. I'd be more interested in trying to make staughton/dega more reliable and using kropotkin as a staging server, but right now I'm more worried about getting all the sites o
16:42 <@micah> i think chris_msp was next
16:42  * ski raises
16:42 < chris_msp> micah: you got cut off
16:42 < chris_msp> I see "all the sites o"
16:42 <@micah> i did? where?
16:42 <@micah> all the sites off of stallman<end>
16:43 < chris_msp> my concern was just that I think we should not move more stuff onto the new hosting situation than we absolutely have to
16:43 <@micah> stack: chris_msp, bame, ski
16:43 < chris_msp> we may be setting ourselves up for another problem if that falls through - too many eggs in one basket
16:43  * mtoups raises
16:43  * micah raises
16:43 < chris_msp> <end>
16:43 <@micah> bame?
16:43 -!- john [~john@] has joined #meeting
16:44  * bame_ is concerned about trying to migrate AND move stallman in a short time -- wonders if stallman could be fedexed to calyx first and then migrated over time <end>
16:44  * ski lowers
16:44 < mtoups> ok me then i think
16:44  * stefani raises
16:44 < mtoups> so i'd like to hear a bit more about the possibility of getting stallman on something like a fast DSL line in seattle to buy us some more time
16:45 < mtoups> i have a theory that we can reduce a sizable amount of stallman's b/w consumption
16:45 < mtoups> just by losing the mir sites
16:45 <@micah> stack: mtoups, micah, stefani
16:45  * chris_msp raises
16:45 <@micah> stack: mtoups, micah, stefani, chris_msp
16:45 < mtoups> (since the active sites are static html only)
16:45  * Zapata raises
16:45  * Zapata actually raises in response to mtoups theory
16:45 < mtoups> so i postulate that perhaps if we move the mir sites to other friendly mirrors (less labor intensive) and migrate *some* active sites (which we're already doing and hopefully will continue to do)
16:46 < mtoups> then we can continue to keep stallman up on a slower link and finally migrate off of it completely in a more sane timeline
16:46  * ski notes mtoups meant to say mir sites are static html only
16:46 <@micah> stack: mtoups, micah, stefani, chris_msp, zapata
16:46 < mtoups> mtoups wille <end> and get good data from zapata?
16:46 <@micah> stack: mtoups, zapata, micah, stefani, chris
16:46 <@micah> Zapata: did you want to fill in some info?
16:47 < Zapata> well, there are only 3 mir sites on stallman... ecuador, bolivia and germany...
16:47 < mtoups> (we'll also need good data on the options to where stallman could move)
16:47 < Zapata> ecuador and bolivia are relatively low-traffic I would guess...
16:47 < Zapata> stallman is only a third of germany's (roud robined) hosts
16:47 < Zapata> so I have doubts about mtoups' theory...
16:48 < Zapata> <end>
16:48 <@micah> in response to chris' eggs in one basket comment... I think he is right, thats how stallman has been for a while, too many sites on one box (although there can be an argument made for the effective use of resources here). There has been the 
16:48 <@micah> general push, albiet a slow drive, for more decentralization. However, due to the time constraints related to stallman, I think tackling decentralization should be a separate issue.
16:48  * bame_ twinkles
16:49  * ski also eats twinkies.
16:49 <@micah> lets get the sites off of stallman, even if that means putting them all on one server so it is just like stallman, and then start migrating and decentralizing, we need to prioritize what needs ot be done
16:49 <@micah> <end>
16:49 <@micah> stefani?
16:49  * ski raises
16:49  * mtoups raises
16:49 <@micah> stack: stefani, chris_msp, ski, mtoups
16:49 < stefani> first, i think stallman pretty much needs to stay in seattle until all sites are off of it, so the fedex option isn't too great - too much downtime.
16:50 < stefani> second, getting the new obxes online and at a colo seems to be very high priority, so we need to move forward on that asap.
16:50 < stefani> third, i can get data on which sites produce which traffic on stallman, by the end of today.
16:51  * ski twinkles at stef #3
16:51 <@micah> great :)
16:51 <@micah> stefani: finished?
16:51  * micah raises
16:51 < stefani> fourth, i have to support the idea of moving sites off stallman first, and then continue the decentralisation.  as that
16:51 <@micah> stack: stefani, chris_msp, ski, mtoups, micah
16:51  * taggart raises
16:51  * matze raises
16:51 <@micah> stack: stefani, chris_msp, ski, mtoups, micah, taggart, matze
16:51  * chris_msp lowers
16:52 < stefani> was what we were trying to accomplish in the move from emma/turtle to stallman and then from stallman, in the first palce 3 years ago.
16:52 <@micah> stack: stefani, ski, mtoups, micah, taggart, matze
16:52 < stefani> and there has been  progress  in that process albeit slow.
16:53 < stefani> fifth: the migration process will speed up as more fols get experienced in it, and the transfer also  - as was seen previously.
16:53 < stefani> i think that is all for now </end>
16:54 <@micah> ski?
16:54 < ski> i humbly suggest that if we're going to just dump stallman somewhere else, we already have both the bandwidth and the machine to take a temporary stallman image while we decntralize/migrate: berkman.
16:54 < ski> if we're not, we need to email all the imc's which would be moved and just fucking do it - migrate them to dega, staughton, linefeed, wherever we can, asap.
16:54 <@micah> stack: mtoups, micah, taggart, matze
16:54 < ski> this is what chris's doing with richmond and twincities, and i applaud his effort
16:54 < ski> if we go the route of migrating instead of just dumping, i think we need to have a backup plan in case the migrations don't proceed fast enough.<end>
16:54  * chris_msp raises
16:55 < mtoups> ok so my fear about just rsyncing stallman somewhere else is that first of all there are a bunch of hacks holding stallman together which seem to be that they'd be hard to reproduce, but doable, but then we'd be back where we are now, with a server with 'too many eggs' and also we'd "pullute" another box with active and the various hacks which have proven barely stable on stallman.
16:55 < mtoups> BUT i see that we're going to have to do that because migrating that many sites in this timeframe is unrealistic
16:56 <@micah> stack: micah, taggart, matze, chris_msp
16:56 < mtoups> its just my hope that we can migrate enough to at least lower stallman's bandwidth requriements, then maybe stallman can still stay up?  is it still realistic to get stallman on a 1MB or so DSL line at SEA IMC to buy us some extra months?
16:57 < mtoups> anyway we might need to do a quick stallman move to another system
16:57 < mtoups> but i'd like to see us do as little moving of active sites as possible and as much migration
16:58 < mtoups> otherwise we're back in the same situation and delaying the inevitable:
16:58 < mtoups> 1. active needs to die die die
16:58 < mtoups> 2. decentralization needs to happen
16:58 < mtoups> ok <end> i guess
16:58 <@micah> I'd like to propose a modification of the proposal:
16:58 <@micah> strike #1,2,3
16:58 <@micah> make it so we can get the servers, get the colo and get as much
16:58 <@micah> off of stallman onto the servers as soon as possible. I suggestthat we migrate those cities who have chosen a new code base post-haste
16:59 <@micah> those that haven't decided, we migrate to sf-active and mir randomly,
16:59 <@micah> those we cant migrate in time we move over as active sites.
16:59  * mtoups twinkles
16:59 <@micah> in terms of berkman, it isn't so easy to just do an image, it is running a totally different OS and as mtoups said, stallman is full of hacks, it wouldn't be easy
17:00 <@micah> in terms of seattle IMC, part of the speakeasy thing is that startingdecember 1st seattle IMC needs to start paying for its DSL line. Seattle IMC is financially strapped right now, I think it might be possible if we absolutely needed to to give some money to keep that DSL line at that speed (they might have to lower it)
17:00 <@micah> and put what is remaining on stallman over there, with some sort of bandwidth cap or something to not interfere with the radio stream
17:00 <@micah> <end>
17:01 <@micah> taggart
17:01 <@micah> stack: taggart, matze, chris_msp
17:01 < taggart> I have a couple things
17:01 < taggart> 1.) I'm in seattle and could host a box on dsl, but I don't think this is feasib
17:01 < taggart> le bandwidth-wise unless it doesn't include global and a couple big ones
17:01 < taggart> 2.) if stallman is being split up, bame and I can setup a box in colorado and ta
17:01 < taggart> ke a few regional sites(rockymountain, maybe others)
17:01 < taggart> 3.) there are rumors of some people pursuing creating a seattle non-profit colo.
17:01 < taggart>  I don't know much but am trying to find out.
17:01 < taggart> 4.) seattle IMC is a mess right now, they shouldn't be counted on for anything
17:01  * bame_ notes taggart's messed with bandwidth shaping before and chastises himself for talking out of turn
17:01 < taggart> <end> :)
17:01 < matze> if it's helpful i would set up a dedicated server that could take over
17:01 < matze> services from che, kropotkin, ... or could serve as staging server. i'd
17:01 < matze> prefer a non-content server, as it'sa german isp and i'm not sure how
17:01 < matze> they'd react on 'undesired' content.
17:01 < matze> <end
17:02  * micah raises to respond to some of taggart's points real quick?
17:02 < chris_msp> go ahead
17:02 <@micah> 1. I agree, home dsl is not very feasible unless we move bigger sites off, we can assses that later if we need to
17:02 <@micah> 2. I think local control of IMC sites onto local boxes is a GREAT idea, do it!
17:02 <@micah> 3. seattle community colo will not be ready in time
17:02 <@micah> 4. twinkle
17:02 <@micah> end
17:03 < chris_msp> I think we have two issues that we should deal with separately: all the sites minus www.indy and www.indy on its own
17:03 <@micah> chris_msp?
17:03  * micah raises
17:03  * mtoups twinkles to the www.indy point
17:04 < chris_msp> most of the sites can be migrated without too much difficulty I think if we have spots to put them.  So can we write all the sites and ask them to choose quickly a db: sf-active, mir, and dadaIMC
17:04 < chris_msp> I think we should use this crunch time to get as much done as possible because quite honestly
17:04 < chris_msp> that is when most of the work gets done
17:04  * ski raises re: dada
17:04 < chris_msp> if we just copy those active sites over, and say we will deal with it later, then it will be forever until it is done
17:05 < chris_msp> I know dadaIMC is nice and quick to migrate to
17:05 < chris_msp> <end>
17:05  * pabs notes patrick has arrived in #tech
17:05 <@micah> I'd like some resolution on the proposal I put forward. It sounds like if we do that, taggart and bame work on moving some regionals off, we have che as a backup (and california community colo, where che is, is an option for hosting things, and espe has something brewing also), I think we'll be ok. The crucial thing right now is to get everything off of stallman, however we can...
17:05  * ski wasn't paying attention to the stack, am i next?
17:05 <@micah> doing so as managed as possible is ideal
17:05 <@micah> <end>
17:05 <@micah> ski, you are next
17:05 < ski> we can't take too many more sites on dega right now due to stability concerns.
17:05 <@micah> stack is empty
17:05  * mtoups stack
17:05 < mtoups> er
17:05  * mtoups raises
17:05 < ski> i wouldn't feel comfortable putting any dada sites on zero since we don't know how long it will stay around
17:06 < ski> there was something else i was gonna say but <end> for now
17:06  * micah raises
17:07 < mtoups> i like micah's proposal.  maybe we can tell current stallman sites that we'll ask them to chip in for seattle's DSL if they stay on stallman?  maybe that'll provide an incentive for them to help us migrate?  not to be a jerk about money or anything...
17:07 < mtoups> also i agree we need to figure out a seperate plan for what to do with global (
17:07 < mtoups> and what the process will be for deciding that is
17:07  * ski sorry to interrupt - ps about zero - chris informs me it's gonna be gone real soon now, so it looks like dega will fill with those sites
17:07 < mtoups> because in that case there isn't a local imc with a clear decisionmaking process there to make the call
17:08 -!- patrick [irc@localhost] has joined #meeting
17:08 < mtoups> another quick thought, perhaps could help with some east-US sites?  i will contact akb if necessary
17:09 < mtoups> but let's begin the local IMC moves ASAP, but the big question is WHAT ABOUT GLOBAL?  proposals?  <end>
17:09 <@micah> chris_msp: yeah, I'll modify my proposal to say we migrate people to dada, sf-active and mir as our resources see fit to do so, those we cannot migrate in time we move over as active sites. We notify sites on stallman TODAY, they have a week to tell us what code-base they want, if they dont tell us by then, then we are free to migrate as resources are fit. Most people have been on active forever and could stand ot be on another codebase for a while until they decide 
17:09  * taggart raises
17:10  * quinten raises
17:10  * chris_msp twinkles micah
17:10  * bame_ raises
17:10 <@micah> can we pass the proposal that is the current agenda item, and then move on? 
17:10 <@micah> mtoups: I think talking about global should be another agenda item
17:10  * chrisc raises if we are talking abt ...
17:10  * ski isn't sure what the proposal is?
17:10  * chrisc lowers in that case
17:11 <@micah> I will restate my proposal while taggart talks
17:11 < taggart> can I talk about global?
17:11 < ski> tks micah
17:11 < taggart> or should I wait?
17:12 < mtoups> go ahead taggart
17:12 < mtoups> er
17:12 < mtoups> well
17:12 < mtoups> i meant you have the floor
17:12 < mtoups> i dunno if people want to talk about global yet though
17:13 <@micah> PROPOSAL: We pass the proposal outlined here: with the modifications: strike #1, #2, #3. We modify it instead so that we can get the servers and get as much off of stallman onto these servers as soon as possible. We migrate cities that have chosen a new code base within a week to their chosen code base, those who haven't decided we migrate to dada, sf-active and mir according to available resource
17:13 <@micah> lets put global down under the migrating sites agenda item
17:13 <@micah> we need to get these proposals passed first
17:13 <@micah> quinten, then bame?
17:13 <@micah> then can we make a decision and move on?
17:14  * mtoups quick clarification
17:14 <@micah> ya?
17:14 < mtoups> "migrate within a week" ... to where?  staughton/dega?
17:14 < mtoups> we probably won't have the new boxes ready and colo'd by then right?
17:15  * ski raises
17:15 <@micah> maybe it should be slightly changed so that the deadline that IMCs have for choosing a new code base is dependant on how soon the servers are up and in the colo, that probably will be more than a week.
17:15 < mtoups> well setting the deadline earlier is still a good idea though :)
17:15 <@micah> mtoups: I was saying that IMCs had a week to decide a new code base
17:15 <@micah> not that they are migrated in a week
17:15 < mtoups> ah good
17:15 < mtoups> thank you
17:15 <@micah> stack: quinten, bame, ski
17:15 < mtoups> quinten go ahead
17:15 < quinten> that makes sense, since they might want to tweak some settings, and that can be done on staughton or dega
17:16 < quinten> my point was about global, but probably quick and obvious
17:16 < quinten> the code base we choose needs good internationalization
17:16 < quinten> kind of ruling out sf-active
17:17  * taggart raises
17:17 < quinten> and would also require rebuilding of some custom things for syndication
17:17 < quinten> <end>
17:17  * bame_ reminds that ftaa will impact people's time ### <- radio-news-geek's <end> :-)
17:17  * quinten will probably be around during ftaa
17:17 <@micah> bame: did you have somehting more to say?
17:17 < bame_> not yet
17:17 < ski> if we're gonna consense on the proposal we need to talk about reimbursing bame. so let's do that, consense, and move on
17:17 <@micah> lets talk about global site later, ski?
17:18  * mtoups raises
17:18 <@micah> yeah, reimbursing bame comes after the calyx proposal
17:18 < ski> my bad
17:18 < ski> <end>
17:18 <@micah> mtoups?
17:18 < mtoups> i dig micah's proposal, one quick amendment: in addition to making contact with local ISPs immediately about moving, we also make contact with others who could help with tech/bandwidth
17:18 < mtoups> i would be willing to work on this
17:19 < mtoups> for example, mutualaid hosts dc-imc on dada, has good tech skills and possibly could help hosting
17:19 < mtoups> we'd have to ask of course
17:19 < mtoups> there are other servers run in places like san diego, los angeles
17:19 < mtoups> if each would be willing to take even just one or two sites off stallman
17:19 < mtoups> that'd help a lot
17:19  * micah raises
17:19 < mtoups> or even just provide tech help
17:20 < mtoups> so i'd be willing to do the outreach to get more techs/servers on board
17:20 < mtoups> so really accellerate the decentralization
17:20 < mtoups> crap
17:21 <@micah> <end>
17:21 <@micah> ?
17:21 < mtoups> i lost what i what typing when chris msg'd me
17:21 < mtoups> do i'll end
17:21 < mtoups> <end>
17:21  * elfo raises
17:21 <@micah> ok, as action items, if we pass this proposal, I will send out the modified version, and send out the letter to IMCs about choosing a code base and mtoups will start gathering the tech troops (and others should as well)
17:21  * ski twinkles, thumbs up, etc. let's move on?
17:21 <@micah> I dont know what the technical terms are for saying LETS PASS THIS PROPOSAL, but motion to pass proposal modified by what we said here?
17:21 <@micah> elfo?
17:21 < elfo> here in lausanne i can ask for bandwidth and i probably can set up a server
17:22 < elfo> lausanne is in switzerland
17:22  * quinten seconds
17:22 < elfo> but not for the next 2 weeks :)
17:22 < elfo> but this could help decentralization
17:22 -!- stav [~stav@] has joined #meeting
17:22 < elfo> <end>
17:22  * ski suggests we go by passive consensus, assume everyone agrees unless they say they don't, and move on.
17:22 <@micah> ok
17:22  * bame_ twinkles
17:22  * taggart still has a comment
17:23 < taggart> dunno where I am in the stack though
17:23 <@micah> an aside, is someone logging? ski you generally are
17:23 <@micah> taggart: you are up
17:23 < mtoups> i am logging also
17:23 < ski> yes, i've been logging since i got here micah
17:23 <@micah> then lets move onto the second proposal
17:23 < ski> but i wasn't here for the first ~20 min.
17:23  * elfo is logging
17:23  * chrisc is also
17:23 < taggart> stefani mentioned getting data on bw usage for the stallman sites
17:24 < taggart> I'd like to propose having a meeting of people who can take sites once that data is available
17:24 < taggart> and spilt up the list
17:24  * ski raises as direct response
17:24 < taggart> (I'm assuming global is not on the list)
17:24 < taggart> <end>
17:25 < ski> as can be evidenced here, meetings suck, can someone just post to imc-tech and we'll divy it up there? <end>
17:25 <@micah> point of clarification, the issue of where to migrate people is later in the agenda
17:25 -!- micah changed the topic of #meeting to: topic hosting at caylx:
17:25 < taggart> micah: point noted, sorry
17:25 <@micah> no prob :)
17:25  * patrick raises
17:25 <@micah> ok, next proposal, its very similar to the first one, so I propose we modify it the same we did the first one
17:25 <@micah> patrick?
17:26 < patrick> sorry, who's faciliitaing?
17:26 <@micah> I am pointing at people
17:26 <@micah> right now I am pointing at you
17:26  * micah raises
17:27 < patrick> heh, maybe if we could just slow down a tad. end
17:27 <@micah> patrick: <end> when finished
17:27 < patrick> <end>
17:27 <@micah> is the hosting at calyx confirmed?
17:27 <@micah> if so, I'd like to pass the proposal with the modifications made for the first proposal
17:28  * patrick raises
17:28 <@micah> although I'd like to know if there are local people to support hardware on a server if necessary
17:28 <@micah> and explore the option of getting a PC weasel or something if necessary to alleviate that
17:28 <@micah> <end>
17:28  * ski raises
17:28  * micah points at patrick
17:28 <@micah> stack: patrick, ski
17:28 < patrick> direct response: calys sounds very positive, but is not confirmed.
17:29 <@micah> what needs to happen to close that?
17:29 < patrick> in nyc, myself, mike c., kevin, lee are on the ground people
17:30 < patrick> and I'm sure I can round up others. I don't see that as a problem in such a big place.  however, if nyc goes on a different server than the calyx sites, they will be less involved
17:30  * stefani has to step away for a few minutes.
17:30  * taggart raises
17:30 < patrick> calyx:
17:31 <@micah> stack: ski, taggart
17:31 < patrick> I have emailed back a response to NickCaly's last questions.  he usually responds in 1-2 days, haven't heard back in 2 days. <end>
17:31 -!- gdm_away [] has joined #meeting
17:31 < ski> pc weasels are fuckin expensive, $250 for the isa one, $350 for pci. it's a great idea, but considering these boxes are worth somewhere in that neighborhood, seems like overkill. also i'm within panicked overnight drive distance of nyc. <end>
17:31  * micah raises
17:31 -!- gdm_away is now known as gdm
17:31 < taggart> I have a cyclades pc-weasel type card that could be used, but it needs to be tested
17:31 < taggart> <end>
17:32  * bame_ direct: no spare pci slots in the 1u servers
17:32  * patrick adds tarikh to on the ground ny people, with considerations noted
17:33 <@micah> in reponse to patrick, I dont think anyone has suggested nyc.imc be put anywhere else. Regarding on the ground people, it would be good to have that solid, because when it comes time to needing people we don't want to end up realizing that we don't have contacts or people committed to dealing with the server, but we should be able to find someone in NYC. I think putting the machines on a serial console to another machine and making ski drive overnight is good fun. :)
17:33 <@micah> <end>
17:34  * ski :-P's @ micah
17:34  * mtoups raises
17:34  * bame_ notes 1u boxes have some serial console capability <end>
17:34 <@micah> anyone have anything else to say? or can we pass the proposal with modifications and hope that caylx comes back saying ok?
17:34 <@micah> mtoups: ?
17:34  * ski raises
17:34 <@micah> stack: mtoups, ski
17:34  * patrick raises
17:35 <@micah> stack: mtoups, ski, patrick
17:35 < mtoups> quick question, are we going to pay speakeasy to let us leave stallman there from Dec 1 to Jan 1?  seems like we need the time right?
17:35 < mtoups> i'd propose that we do pay them for that month
17:35 < mtoups> but of course start migrations asap
17:35  * micah raises in response to mtoups
17:35 < ski> go micah
17:35 < mtoups> maybe ask them if we reduce the bandwidth  level, will they reduce the cost?
17:35 < mtoups> <end> go micah
17:36 <@micah> the cost of the colocation of the server is bandiwdth determined, so if it was reduced it should be less... it is $200 per piece of hardware (we have two machines there), plus bandwidth. I'd like to talk later about considering paying for that if we need to
17:36 <@micah> but leave it open as somehting we could do if needed, but not mandate it right now
17:36 -!- stefani [irc@localhost] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:36 <@micah> <end>
17:36 < mtoups> ok
17:36  * ski was wondering what "some serial console capability means, bame? <end>
17:36 < ski> oops, sorry matt
17:36 -!- stefani [irc@localhost] has joined #meeting
17:36  * bame_ suggests adding to the fundraising item
17:37 <@micah> bame_: adding what to the fundraising item?
17:37  * bame_ forgets the details -- intel _server_ mobo/chipset has some extra serial features iirc
17:37 < bame_> micah: paying for stallman colo <end>
17:38  * micah notes it
17:38 <@micah> patrick?
17:38  * mtoups raises
17:38 < patrick> nyc imc techs talked at the last meeting about decentralizing from stallman, and getting their own server.  which is what I meant by hosting somewhere else even if calyx were a go.  however, it seems silly that they would do this if we had calyx, and I think most of them understood that.  also, can we try to save most comments for stack, I think a few folks are commmenting this meeting is going too fast (less  /me 's).  <end>
17:39  * micah raises
17:40 < mtoups> am i up?
17:40 -!- Ps-Aw is now known as PseudoPunk
17:40 < mtoups> er never mind, go ahead micah
17:41 <@micah> patrick: you missed the earlier part of the meeting where we talked about the relative priority of decentralizaiton. Regarding the pace of the meeting, we actually were trying to *speed* things up because the meeting started really late and people weren't here. I'm fine with slowing things down, but not because people were late and are catching up
17:41 <@micah> i've got other things scheduled for today and want to get through the meeting in less than 3 hours :)
17:41 <@micah> <end>
17:42 < mtoups> ok is anyone waiting to speak?
17:42  * micah looks at stack
17:42 <@micah> nope
17:42 < mtoups> the current proposal is about calyx right?
17:43 < mtoups> patrick, it is possible that they might want some kind of compensation right?
17:43  * patrick raises
17:43 < mtoups> go patrick
17:43 < patrick> I can email the responses I got
17:44 < mtoups> well i am thinking we should discuss now what we can do if we need to
17:44 < patrick> from calyx. nick asked how much speakeasy was charging us, and this could be interpreted as
17:44 < mtoups> so that we don't have to wait for another meeting to make it happen
17:44 < patrick> well, not a meeting like this, for sure
17:44 <@micah> can we pass the proposal with the modifications? Do people want me to reiterate the modificaitons?
17:44 <@micah> so we pass unless someone says not to?
17:44 -!- micah changed the topic of #meeting to: status of server donation - reimbursement of bame
17:44 < patrick>  yes please restate the proposal <end>
17:45 <@micah> ah, dang lag
17:46  * ski raises
17:46 <@micah> ski?
17:47 < ski> re: these servers, we still don't have definite word from calyx, so like, uhh, we're reimburing bame for shipping (and perhaps more), but like, where are we shipping them to?
17:47  * bame_ grins
17:47 < ski> also bame, can you give some cost info here?
17:47 < ski> <end>
17:47  * bame_ raises for status update etc
17:47 < ski> just go :-)
17:47 < bame_> Took delivery of 4x73G SCSI SCA drives but 1/3H may not fit -- thought
17:47 < bame_> they were low profile will check fit today.  LP disks may be lots more  
17:47 < bame_> expensive unfortunately up to 2:1 in price.  got a guy to handle shipping
17:47 < bame_> legwork in exchange for my breaking/upgrading the community firewall 
17:47 < bame_> after this meeting. can install debian if that's what's agreed upon,   
17:48 < bame_> probably sw raid-1 too depending on schedules.
17:48 < bame_> min desired reimburse is $shipping
17:49 < bame_> my original offer
17:49  * ski raises
17:49 < bame_> reimburse can be delayes
17:49 < bame_> s/es/ed/
17:50 < bame_> instead of 2x 9G in each 1u server i'm trying to put 2x 73G but if the 1/3h don't fit may have to reduce that for monetary reasons
17:51 < bame_> questions?<end>
17:51 < ski> what is $shipping ($35 ea. still?) and what is $max considering the (possible) new drives? <end>
17:52 < bame_> est $35 ea shipping, $max would be $380+$290+$35 each my cost, which I don't expect that much
17:53 < bame_> propose $100 each reimburse contingent on new funds/funraising...
17:54  * ski twinkles if the 73Gers go in
17:55 < bame_> status update complete -- i'll report (to patrick?) on status of disks and capabilities fo serial management later?
17:56 < ski> bame_ how about imc-tech@ or imc-sysadmin@ instead of just patrick <end>
17:56  * ski wonders if anyone else is still here?
17:56 < ski> or has any comments...
17:56  * bame_ is <gasp> just subscribing to -tech and will send tere
17:57  * chrisc is still here...
17:57  * patrick is here
17:57  * mtoups here
17:57  * stefani is here
17:57 < mtoups> imc-sysadmin would probably be more appropriate for low level system details
17:57 < bame_> k
17:58 < mtoups> bame, when could we get this box on the net and start breaking in/other setup?  before calyx i hope
17:58 < bame_> mtoups: i was anticipating installing hw, optionally the os, and shipping to nyc immediately
17:59  * patrick raises
17:59  * bame_ notes a low-bandwidth connection in could be arranged for a bit
18:00 < patrick> a plan had been floated that the rackmounts be shipped to me, connected to my dsl, folks tweak and configure, and then install when calyx is ready.  or in dire events ship somewhere else.
18:00 < patrick> <e nd>
18:00 -!- PseudoPunk is now known as Ps-aw
18:00 < mtoups> i think either plan is fine, the main thing is that we make sure we're good to go before it goes into colocation
18:01  * ski would be happier if the machines are in nyc, where there are (i think) more hosting opportunities nearby in case one fails
18:02  * patrick raises
18:02 < patrick> so I'd like to propose that formally, the floated plan above <end>
18:03 < mtoups> patrick: i support that proposal
18:03 -!- micah [irc@localhost] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:03  * ski agrees
18:03 < ski> where are we on the agenda?
18:03 < ski> our moderator seems to have died.
18:04 < mtoups> doh
18:04 < chrisc>
18:04 < mtoups> well
18:04 < bame_> we just finished 'status of server donation' -- not sure status of the $100 each proposal
18:04 < chrisc> i guess we are onto 'Migrating sites' next?
18:04 < mtoups> ok, i support the $100 each proposal also
18:04 < ski> hmm
18:05 < ski> didn't we already do "migrating sites?"
18:05 < mtoups> if people want to have the "os holy war" i'd be willing to moderate (strictly)
18:05  * ski wonders if anyone wants to facilitate?
18:05 < mtoups> but
18:05  * bame_ thinks we skipped fundraising
18:05 < mtoups> maybe we should have the global site codebase holy war first?
18:05 < chrisc> hehe
18:05 < mtoups> oh, fundraising, something practical, good idea
18:06 < mtoups> any one want to be on the queue for fundraising?
18:06 < patrick> can we repost the current remainning agenda?
18:06  * bame_ thinks with all the benefit indymedia is providing these days, people would actually feel empowered to help financially, and we should ask
18:06  * mtoups notes the differences between a stack and queue data structure and uses the correct term
18:07  * quinten notes that perhaps a priority queue is the best metaphor
18:08  * bame_ nominates mtoups as facilitator and raises
18:08 < mtoups> bame_: go ahead
18:08  * elfo agrees with mtoups 
18:09 < bame_> i propose a low-key fundraising note on global imc explaining some of the issues (stallman etc) a bit
18:09 < bame_> <end> /bame runs
18:09  * mtoups raises
18:09 < mtoups> ok i seem to have the floor
18:09 < mtoups> bame_: i support this, and i think we should contact some older folks in tech because i *think* there is an imc-tech paypal account or something like that already set up to handle this sort of thing
18:10 < mtoups> but i don't know the details, we should ask
18:10 < mtoups> <end>
18:10 < mtoups> (anyone else want to raise?)
18:10  * taggart leaves for another meeting, bye
18:10  * ski raises his hand
18:10 -!- taggart [] has quit [Quit: Client exiting]
18:10  * mtoups queue: ski (go ahead ski)
18:10  * patrick raises
18:10  * ski smells something funny, scratches his head, and puts his hand down again (go patrick ;-) <end>
18:10  * mtoups queue ski patrick
18:11 < mtoups> go ahead patrick
18:11 < patrick> uh, taking my que, I will contact rabble, etc, to coordinate the paypal, and write up/post a donation advert to global <end>
18:12  * mtoups raises
18:12 < mtoups> patrick: awesome :) <end>
18:12 < mtoups> anyone else?  are we done talking about fundraising?
18:12  * patrick raises
18:12  * bame_ raises
18:12 < mtoups> patrick, then bame_
18:12 < patrick> can someone restate the prposal for the log? then let's move on <end>
18:13  * mtoups raises
18:13 < bame_> 1. thanks patrick!  2. process for making sure funds get to the right places? <end>
18:13 -!- akb [] has joined #meeting
18:13  * mtoups queue: bame_, mtoups
18:14  * patrick raises
18:14 < mtoups> ok, i'm up: i'd like to also suggest that the mass-mail to imc's getting migrated include that fundraising pitch <end>
18:14 < mtoups> patrick, go ahead
18:14  * ski twinkles at mtoups' suggestion
18:14  * bame_ twinkles too
18:14 < patrick> okay so we have: 
18:14 < patrick> a) mass email to imc's re conversion includes advert
18:14 < patrick> b) patrick writes advert
18:15 < patrick> c) patrick posts advert to imc-global, coordinates paypal, and works with ski, mtoups, micah, whoever else to distribute funds
18:15 < patrick> is that everything?  <end>
18:16  * ski has to split. later y'all
18:16  * bame_ sees no clarification nor objections...
18:16  * patrick sees the proposal pass by
18:16 < mtoups> me neither, so, we go ahead with this then
18:17 < patrick> I will send advert to tech list, you folks, for review pre-post
18:17 < bame_> k
18:17 < bame_> OS holy war?
18:17 < mtoups> yeah, include reasons like, the cost of the new hardware, potential cost to keep stallman around long enough to finish migration, etc
18:18  * bame_ thinks it ought to "reach out" to people who found indymedia essential during war etc
18:19 < patrick> hey, why don't we draft the advert on ServerCoordination page?
18:19 < mtoups> ok i'd like a feel for who is still in the meeting and what topic they feel still needs discussion (os on new boxes, codebase for proposed new global site, etc)
18:19  * bame_ would like an e-mail reminder at some point to check that page
18:20 < patrick>
18:20 < mtoups> maybe we should avoid the holy wars and get to work on everything we talked about?
18:20  * chrisc is interested in discussion migration of
18:21 < patrick> os wars: I think it should be influenced by what the skillsets/preferences are of the majority of the sysadmins who will be admin'ing the servers.  which, correct me if I'm wrong, is debian?
18:22  * bame_ and taggart are "official" debian developers fwiw
18:22  * chrisc knows redhat better but doesn't care abt holy wars...
18:22 < elfo> eh eh
18:22  * elfo says: debian or slackware
18:22 < mtoups> myself and micah are longtime debian folks also and it works well for systems that will be adminned by lots of people
18:22  * ski says windows 95.
18:22  * elfo is not a sysadmin yet.. so he doesn't count
18:23  * stefani notes that rh/deb/slack is not an os war 
18:23  * chris_msp votes OS/2
18:23 < mtoups> ski, go away, you left this meeting already!
18:23 -!- ski is now known as the_ghost_of_ski
18:23 < elfo> eh he
18:23  * mtoups points out that openBSD was once on the table for this
18:23 < mtoups> but given the time critical situation of migrating from stallman we might want to reduce the variables
18:24 < mtoups> and that bame can save time for us by doing the debian config
18:24 < patrick> sounds good.  bsd was originally considered because of calyx's preference for that, and possible help on the box if it was bsd, and ski/mtoups were willing, but this is now a larger project to replace stallman
18:24  * matze prefres ms-dos
18:24 < bame_> our colo also prefers bsd but the box we pay for has debian :-)
18:24  * pabs prefers contiki
18:24 -!- djbios-sea [] has joined #meeting
18:25  * the_ghost_of_ski thought earlier in the meeting that we decided these boxes were *not* gonna be used to replace stallman?
18:25 < mtoups> so it sounds like folks are pretty comfortable sticking with debian linux for now
18:25 < patrick> so, I propose that the rackmounts be debian. <end>
18:25  * bame_ is unsure the global migration proposal got very far
18:26 < patrick> replace, help out, in response to, whatever
18:26 < mtoups> yeah i am a bad moderator, we need the meetingBot already
18:26  * patrick apologizes for crankiness
18:26 < mtoups> so, questions/concerns on the rackmount-debian proposal?
18:27  * chrisc is on phone
18:28  * djbios-sea woke up late - any kind person can give a summary?
18:29 < mtoups> if there are no questions/concerns about patricks proposal (bame will install/configure debian linux on the new rack boxes), do people support the proposal, stand aside, object, block, or anything else like that?
18:29  * stefani does not boject
18:29  * elfo supports
18:30 -!- epsas [] has joined #meeting
18:30 < mtoups> good, just trying to avoid too many deicisions made too passively.
18:30  * chrisc thinks it sounds like a good plan
18:30 < epsas> ((moin moin))
18:30 < mtoups> so on to the global site migration topic?
18:30  * bame_ thinks it passed, and remembers we didn't talk about paying an extra month for stallman
18:30 < mtoups> bame_: good point about the extra month for stallman
18:30 < mtoups> bame_: but when i brought it up micah sounded like he thought it should come up later "if needed"
18:30  * bame_ really must destroy his community network now -- later
18:31 < patrick> sounded like extra month was suggested as possibility by micah, but not to mandate it
18:31 < mtoups> 12:35 <@micah> the cost of the colocation of the server is bandiwdth determined, so if it was reduced it should be less... it i
18:31 < mtoups> s $200 per piece of hardware (we have two machines there), plus bandwidth. I'd like to talk later about considering paying for 
18:31 < mtoups> that if we need to
18:31 < mtoups> 12:36 <@micah> but leave it open as somehting we could do if needed, but not mandate it right now
18:31 -!- jb [irc@localhost] has joined #meeting
18:31 < mtoups> so i guess we want to avoid doing that, though it seems pretty unavoidable
18:32 < mtoups> ok, new topic?
18:32 < chrisc> yeah!
18:32 < mtoups> well i can't set topic
18:32 < mtoups> but
18:33 < mtoups> people want to discuss moving global site ?
18:33 < patrick> yes
18:33 < chrisc> yes
18:33 -!- the_ghost_of_ski is now known as ski
18:33  * chrisc raises
18:33 < ski> yep
18:33 < mtoups> ok yeah let's go back to raising
18:33  * mtoups raises
18:33  * mtoups queue: chrisc mtoups
18:33 < mtoups> go chrisc
18:33 < chrisc> i posted some ideas here:
18:34 < chrisc>
18:34 < chrisc> i think it is a very big job
18:34 < chrisc> i has taken about a year to migrate uk from active to mir
18:34 < chrisc> if mir is to be used i'm interested in helping
18:35 < chrisc> Zapata might also be
18:35 < chrisc> <end>
18:35  * Zapata raises
18:35  * mtoups queue: mtoups
18:35  * elfo raises
18:35 < mtoups> so i like the proposal, if you fill out we can make sure it happens quickly for the lsit
18:35 < mtoups> my open question is: who has the final call on the site codebase?
18:36 < mtoups> i don't know if us techs can make that call which will affect lots of other people in the network
18:36 < mtoups> (even though we make those calls all the time)
18:36 < mtoups> so, should we present a proposal to imc-process, or what?
18:36 < mtoups> <end>
18:36  * mtoups queue: Zapata elfo
18:36  * ski raises
18:36 < Zapata> ok...
18:36 < Zapata> moving www
18:36 < Zapata> are we talking about the features...
18:37 < Zapata> are we talking about the rss imported stuff
18:37 < Zapata> are we talking about the newswire
18:37 < Zapata> as for the features:
18:37 < Zapata> clara has written a proposal to the features group to have that part converted to mir
18:37 < Zapata> the rss imported stuff can remain as it is, included using ssi or so
18:38 < Zapata> how about gettind rid of the the newswire completely...
18:38  * mtoups TWINKLES to that
18:38 < Zapata> afaik only zapatista monitors it...
18:38 < Zapata> it has no official status
18:38 < Zapata> it has no collective behind it
18:38 < Zapata> such a proposal should be done through imc process...
18:38  * mtoups raises
18:39 < Zapata> if we as the techies say it's a lot of wasted effort/bandwidth/space to retain the global newswire, I think chances are good we can get rid of it...
18:39 < Zapata> <end>
18:39  * mtoups queue: elfo ski mtoups
18:39 < elfo> ok
18:39 < elfo> just say i can help helping with mir <end>
18:39 < ski> ok #1, i disagree strongly with ditching the global newswire
18:40 < ski> a lot of people know us just by the main site
18:40 < ski> and if we didn't have it, they'd have no idea of the power of open publishing
18:40  * patrick twinkles to ski, and idea of imc without open publishing
18:40 < ski> even if it is full of trolls and dupes and other crap
18:40  * jb raises
18:41 < ski> #2, i like the idea of moving www to mir a lot, but i wonder if fsf people would have a problem with it
18:41 < ski> <end>
18:41  * mtoups queue: mtoups jb
18:41 < mtoups> ok, i support zapata's proposal to end the global newswire
18:41  * chrisc raises
18:41 < mtoups> i agree that having that global open publishing forum was once good
18:41 < mtoups> for example, before new orleans had a local IMC people could still post video of demos to that because they wouldn't have had a place to post it at all otherwise
18:42 -!- chris_msp [] has quit [Quit: using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.2.4]
18:42 < mtoups> BUT given that there are regional IMCs in so many places now, and topic imc's coming along, i'm not convinced the need is still there, maybe we could have a "publish" function on the global site that redirects people to an appropriate local/topic IMC
18:42  * Zapata notes that his assumption that getting rid of the newswire would be relatively non-controversial is wrong... perhaps we should in this meeting assume the newswire will remain as it is... opposition in imc process will be much bigger than here...
18:43 < mtoups> because as zapata suggested, we can't really effectively maintain a newswire without a coherant collective behind it to maintain it, and global really isn't that
18:43 -!- bame_ [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:43 < mtoups> but true, maybe we aren't *quite* ready to lose that newswire, but i do think it is the direction we are heading in
18:43 < mtoups> so enough of that
18:43  * ski suggests we table that discussion for now
18:43  * chrisc nods
18:43 < mtoups> anyway i'll <end> and see what jb has to say
18:43  * ski kicks himself for talking out of turn
18:43  * mtoups queue: jb chrisc
18:44 < jb> ok just wanted to say i agree w/ mtoups.
18:44 < mtoups> (aside: zapata can you provide a link to clara's mir-global proposal?)
18:44 < jb> want to ask also: what is the last time people had a look to www. newswire.
18:45 < jb> i figured out yesterday that newswire archiving is br0ken.
18:45 < jb> for 4 or 5 months.
18:45  * ski noticed that
18:45 < jb> and i have seen no complains ...
18:45 < jb> <end>
18:45  * Zapata
18:46 < mtoups> chrisc: go ahead
18:46 < chrisc> i think that the newswire discussion can continue in parallel with the migration
18:46 < chrisc> we do not need to decide if there will be a newswire or not at this stage
18:46 < chrisc> and it is a far bigger decision that one just for techys
18:47  * mtoups raises
18:47 < chrisc> re fsf: i understand that mir is being cleaned up and and should be GPL clean, Zapata knows more on this
18:47 < chrisc> what can we decide here?
18:48 < chrisc> to mail www-features with some process and tech suggestions?
18:48 < chrisc> inc a www-migration list proposal?
18:48 < chrisc> <end>
18:48  * ski sorry to talk out of turn but i want to note that the fsf-nazis are, well, nazis
18:48 < mtoups> so i was hoping that maybe imc-tech could make the proposal to the rest of the network about the newswire, but it doesn't look like we're ready to (yet).
18:48 < mtoups> but i agree with chrisc then, we should compose a message to www-features about what's up
18:49 < mtoups> and empower them to shape the direction of where things go
18:49 < mtoups> also, we're going to create a list to discuss the global migration project right?  we can invite both techies and feature-people to that
18:49  * stefani will have to leave very soon.
18:49 < mtoups> so maybe that's where we go from here?
18:49 < mtoups> <end>
18:49  * chrisc nods
18:50  * ski wonders if stefani has anything she wants to add before splitting?
18:51 < mtoups> did zapata have anything to add on mir's gpl-status?
18:51  * stefani has very little to add right now. i do follow the global newswire, but its days are limited.
18:52 < chrisc> Zapata? GPL and Mir?
18:52  * Zapata is kinda tired of the gpl-status discussion...
18:53 < chrisc> <- Mir goes GPL!
18:53  * patrick raises
18:53 < mtoups> ok so besides the license issue, is mir a good fit for the global site?
18:53 < mtoups> go patrick
18:53  * chrisc raises
18:54 < patrick> are there any other considerations about moving www.indy to mir (sounds like squid issue with sf-active preclueds sf as replacement)
18:54 < patrick> I mean considerations
18:54 < patrick> besides technicalities like gpl?  any feature or load or other issues?  <end>
18:54  * Zapata raises
18:54  * mtoups queue: chrisc zapata
18:55 < chrisc> some things re mir and www - mir is only utf-8 codebase?
18:55 -!- stefani [irc@localhost] has quit [Quit: Client Exiting]
18:55  * mtoups raises
18:55 < chrisc> it would be v cool to have www in multiple languages
18:55 < chrisc> and to mahe topics
18:55 < chrisc> and to have topics
18:55 < chrisc> <end>
18:55  * matze dada has utf-8 and topics but is very database intensive
18:56  * mtoups queue: zapata mtoups
18:56 -!- micah_ [irc@localhost] has joined #meeting
18:56 < Zapata> ok
18:56 < micah_> arg, got knocked off line
18:56 < Zapata> for mir we would need a seperate prod server
18:57 < Zapata> prod server uses cpu but not much bandwidth
18:57 < Zapata> pub server uses bandwidth but only has to provide for static content serving...
18:57 < micah_> can someone catch me up about where we are at?
18:57 -!- micah_ is now known as micah
18:57  * epsas is back [TE/gone: 95h37m15s]
18:57 < Zapata> <end>
18:57 < chrisc> micah: we are on www migration
18:58  * mtoups queue: mtoups
18:58 < mtoups> so, i think mir is a great system and the split between backend code and content serving/mirroring is great and abig plus
18:59 < mtoups> one concern is that it seems that maybe fewer techs fully know the mir system backend, i know myself for example, i haven't interacted with it enough yet.
18:59 < mtoups> but i know mir folks like zapata are veyr responsive
18:59 < mtoups> so maybe zapata and others could provide a training of sorts to others
18:59  * jb raises
18:59  * micah raises
18:59 < mtoups> so we have a broader base of support to keep this maintainable
18:59 < mtoups> and as an aside, i still think java is a sucky language, but pretend i didn't say that :) <end>
19:00  * mtoups queue: jb micah
19:01 < jb> there where even less tech people to answer to active problems
19:01 < jb> so far i didnt hear alot about mir ones..
19:01 < jb> i agree that java is kindo sucky but i support the mgration to mir
19:01 < jb> end
19:01 < micah> I think it would be good to get more techs coherant in mir, there are a lot who are there for sf-active and it often seems like zapata is doing all the mir stuff, spreading that load around more so zapata isn't stretched so thin would be good I think. <end>
19:02  * chrisc nods
19:02  * chrisc raises
19:02  * mtoups queue: chrisc
19:03 < chrisc> ok, we seem to have agreement of proposing www to migrate to mir and for a new list to sort this on and that this should be sent to www-features?
19:03 < chrisc> if so who wants to write the email?
19:03 < chrisc> <end>
19:03  * micah raises
19:03  * mtoups queue: micah
19:04 < micah> I think it should be stressed in the proposal that there really isn't much room for talking about other ideas, that the tech crew agrees that mir is the best choice and if people want to make proposals for something else they should do so, but
19:04  * jb raises
19:04 < micah> those proposals should be made with the imminant doom of stallman in mind, and maybe should be proposed for after it is moved for sanity sake
19:05 < micah> <end>
19:05  * mtoups queue: jb
19:05 < jb> shall we archive the current newswire, so that even if there's a www newswire, we don't have to move it
19:05 < jb> restart with a fresh one, etc.
19:05 < jb> this has already been done.
19:05 < jb> end
19:06  * mtoups twinkles to that
19:06  * mtoups raises
19:07 < mtoups> so i think all of the proposals so far are pretty good
19:07 < mtoups> so i guess i'd feel better if we got moving on them and refining them
19:07 < mtoups> like maybe we break into breakout groups and get going?
19:07  * micah asks for a recap of the current proposals
19:07 < mtoups> whew, tough one
19:08 < mtoups> i'll try but <end> for now
19:08 < micah> :)
19:08  * chrisc notes clara mailed www-features today already:
19:09  * chrisc also note only 2 follow ups also support mir :-)
19:09 < micah> I would like to avoid a imc network wide global code-base war that would impede our work
19:10 < micah> if we want to have that war after we are out of our crisis, that is fine with me
19:10 -!- ekes_mobile [irc@localhost] has left #meeting [Client Exiting]
19:10  * micah also points out that he knows about the imc-tech paypal account
19:11 < micah> and we have some money already in there, we've been holding onto for emergencies
19:11 < epsas> Samizdat!!
19:11  * epsas grrrs
19:11 < micah> that doesn't mean we can't and should do fundraising around this
19:11 < epsas> ((j/k, back to b-fast =))
19:11  * micah wonders if we are waiting for mtoups to recap the proposals and/or should we move on?
19:12 < mtoups> i'm struggling with that one
19:12 < mtoups> so basically 
19:12 < mtoups> i'm going to paste something incomplete and you guys are going to fix it
19:12 -!- ski [irc@localhost] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:13 < micah> ok by me
19:13  * djbios-sea wants to know if near-term colocation has been addressed
19:13 < mtoups> ok here's an attempt to recap some stuff:
19:13 < mtoups> proposal 1.  migrate sites on stallman to sf-active, mir, dada ASAP - PASSED
19:13 < mtoups> proposal 2.  set up bame's boxes to host migrated sites - reimburse him, try to get calyx colo - PASSED
19:13 < mtoups> proposal 3.  bame's boxes to go debian - PASSED
19:13 < mtoups> proposal 4.  kill global newswire -- controversial, tabled
19:13 < mtoups> proposal 5.  migrate global to mir -- proposal to www-features, new list created
19:14  * mtoups dreams of a proposal tracking queue managing meeting bot
19:14 < mtoups> please correct this above, it is surely incomplete and erroneous
19:14  * micah raises
19:15  * mtoups queue: micah
19:15 < micah> they look good to me, although there are more details in each one, and I missed 3 and 4 fighting my network, but as an overall overview it looks right
19:15  * Zapata raises
19:15 < micah> <end>
19:16  * mtoups queue: zapata
19:16 < Zapata> on 2: calyx hosts berkman already right
19:16 < Zapata> I missed this item...
19:16 < Zapata> don't really know what it's about..
19:16 < Zapata> but calyx hosts berkman...
19:16 < Zapata> <end>
19:16  * jb notes that we'd need to talk about berkman one day.
19:16  * mtoups raises
19:17 < mtoups> yes, hosts berkman in amsterdam
19:17 < mtoups> we want to get bame's boxes in in new york city
19:17 < mtoups> same company different colos
19:17  * Zapata ok, good, never mind my remark...
19:17 < mtoups> maybe different deal, maybe not
19:17 < mtoups> yes berkman needs to be discussed
19:17 < mtoups> though that has flamewar-potential also
19:17 < mtoups> so i dunno i have mixed feelings on it
19:18  * jb hides
19:18 < micah> is everyone clear on their tasks?
19:18 < mtoups> and ski is gone, he has strong feelings on the subject
19:18 < mtoups> so yeah, getting to work on stuff now might be a better idea
19:18 < mtoups> <end.
19:18  * chrisc wonders who is doing mail to www-features, and thinks it might be good as a follow-up to claras mail
19:19  * micah is writing up the modified 2 proposals that passed at the meeting to send out, and modifying the stallman sites migrating letter to send out
19:19 < micah> but not doing the www-features email
19:20 < micah> someone here needs to take that one
19:20 < chrisc> i _could_ do www-features mail, but if i do it will be very short...
19:21  * chrisc is not good at long emails
19:21  * micah goes to look at clara's email
19:22 < micah> it looks like both people who responded in november were for switching to mir
19:22 < chrisc> yep
19:23 < mtoups> micah: where november is today
19:23 < chrisc> :-)
19:23 < mtoups> ok so i have timeline questions:
19:23 < micah> mtoups: heh yeah
19:23 < mtoups> when can,, and be off of stallman?
19:24 < mtoups> and i have no idea how long a global migration would take either
19:24 < micah> chrisc: it seems like all that needs to be sent out is an email saying that the tech group will be moving the site to mir unless a different codebase is decided by the time it is required that we move the site. This is due to necessity of the situation and if people want to change the code-base afterwards that is fine
19:24 < mtoups> what about sites like and ? can we just kill those and/or ressurect them into better forms?
19:25  * micah thinks that tech.indy needs to be killed/archived
19:25  * chrisc nods
19:25 < mtoups> ok *I* will write up a proposal to that effect to imc-process then
19:25 < mtoups> also
19:25 < chrisc> mtoups: email abt www?
19:25 < mtoups> micah: do you want me to send out the listwork newsletter? so we can get that off of our minds
19:25  * Zapata quickly: go to
19:26 < mtoups> chrisc: no, email about killing global.indy and tech.indy, they're outdated and not really used i think
19:26 < chrisc> k
19:26  * Zapata mentioned this before to some people, but perhaps someone here can do something about it
19:26  * Zapata i.e. dns change, archival of the old site
19:26 < micah> mtoups: umm, yeah it was just waiting for that list to be created, your spam results to be filled in, and alster's script to be removed if it wasn't finished, if you want to do that, please go ahead
19:27  * micah notes he had to bike to a public terminal to get back online, so doesn't have much luxury of computer right now
19:27 < mtoups> micah: ok, well if you can help me make sure i send it to the right people, that'd be good
19:27 < micah> mtoups: sure
19:27 < patrick> micah: we proposed to add donation advert bame/me/others will draft to your stallman migration email
19:27 < micah> should we wrap things up here?
19:27 -!- john [~john@] has left #meeting [Client Exiting]
19:27 < mtoups> yeah we need to
19:27 < micah> patrick: I dont understand what you said
19:28 < micah> patrick: only because of grammar parsing
19:28 < micah> lets wrap 'er up then, can someone who has them, post the logs to the wiki?
19:29 < patrick> I'll email you 
19:29 < micah> mtoups: should we take care of that now?
19:29 < mtoups> micah: sure, you mean the listwork newsletter i assume
19:29  * chrisc has draft email to www, wouders about pasting it here
19:29 < micah> mtoups, chrisc you both said you had logs, can one of you put them up on the wiki?
19:29 < micah> chrisc: sure go for it
19:29 < chrisc> i can do logs
19:29 < micah> mtoups: yeh
19:29 < micah> chrisc: cool, thanks
19:30 < chrisc> draft email:
19:30 < chrisc> The migration of was discussed
19:30 < chrisc> at a global tech meeting today people want to move the
19:30 < chrisc> site to mir unless a different codebase is decided by the
19:30 < chrisc> time it is required that we move the site. This is due to
19:30 < chrisc> necessity of the situation with stallman and if people
19:30 < chrisc> want to change the code-base afterwards that is fine.
19:30 < chrisc> The meeting also thought that it would be good to set up a 
19:30 < chrisc> dedicated email list for this migration, how about:
19:30 < chrisc>
19:30 < micah> patrick: ok, i am intending to send out this letter today, so whatever it is you want to add let me know asap
19:30 < mtoups> ok chrisc, we can create that list now ane make you and other people here list admins for it
19:31 < patrick> we wanted to put an adverstisement asking for donations for hosting, etc. stallman crisis on global site, also wanted to add this to your mirgration email
19:31 < chrisc> ok, so i should change the email to say that a list has been created and people can join it?
19:31 < micah> chrisc: looks good, just change "how about" to be "The list is here:" and maybe also add the wiki page for the migration, and the wiki for this meeting?
19:31 < chrisc> ok, i have 10mins b4 i need to go out...
19:31 < mtoups> quick proposal: when i write to IMC-Process and propose the destruction of, can i say that IMC-tech consented to this decision at the meeting today? any objetoins/concerns?
19:32 < micah> patrick: ok, if you want to draft something up and send it on I can add the paypal info in it
19:32 < chrisc> patrick: do you have some wording to add abt donations etc?
19:32 < micah> mtoups: tech.indy is our site, so we don't really need to propose it to imc-process
19:32 < micah> mtoups: but global, yeah
19:32 -!- djbios-sea [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:33 < patrick> tech.indy will be archived?
19:33 < micah> yeah
19:33 < mtoups> ok
19:33 < micah> no perm destruction of data anywhere!
19:33 < micah> terabytes of archives coming out of our ears
19:33 < chrisc> re: tech.indy how about running against it and replacing the current site with a static version of it with a note saying it's closed now?
19:33 < patrick> :]
19:33 < mtoups> well i'll just write to dns@indy and imc-tech@indy and request that the dns be removed then? and maybe the status changed in the contact db?
19:34 < patrick> chrisc: I'm totally lost, not sure what you're asking
19:34 < jb> chrisc: we may try this, but active resists very well things like this..
19:34 < mtoups> regarding global.indy -- it looks like it actually might be somewhat useful after all, maybe it should just be migrated to something less sucky
19:34 < jb> like: you cant run wget gainst active for some reason.
19:34 < patrick> in any case, I will write the darn advert and post it to the list/wiki to day
19:34 < chrisc> patrick: you said you have some text you wanted adding to the mail to www-features about the migration, text asking for donations?
19:34 < micah> yeah we just put something big on the page that says THIS SITE IS DEPRECATED, GO TO THIS URL <wiki url>
19:35 < micah> chrisc: can you get the logs posted to the wiki before you go? I need them to prepare the revised proposal stuff
19:35 < chrisc> jb: yeah i remember the uk active site had loads of infinite loops that confused httrack...
19:35 < patrick> chisrc: no, only to the migration email to the vast imc masses, not the few www-features folks
19:35 < chrisc> micah: logs, yes
19:35 < chrisc> patrick: ok
19:35 < micah> chrisc: cool, cheers
19:36 < patrick> cool
19:36 < chrisc> can someone set up www-migration list?
19:36 < matze> if the wget/httrack solution doesn't work we can setup a minimal active, just enoug to display the site. i did this for barcelona, it isn't messy
19:36 < micah> chrisc: mtoups and i will take care of it
19:36 < matze> just a couple of files
19:37 < chrisc> micah: ok, i can put this URI in email then?
19:38 < micah> chrisc: yeah, it'll be ready in a couple minutes
19:38 < mtoups> who wants to co-admin www-features?  chris? me? anyone else?
19:38 < micah> chrisc: mtoups is going to make it now
19:38 < mtoups> more the merrier :)
19:39 -!- pabs [irc@localhost] has quit [Quit: night all]
19:39 < micah> lets call this meeting closed and head over to #tech to work
19:39 < mtoups> yeah
19:39 < mtoups> get yer butts on #tech
19:39 < mtoups> work work work
19:39 < chrisc> clara Zapata and might be interested in list moding?
19:39 < mtoups> yeah
19:39 < chrisc> and as in and@
19:39 < mtoups> ok can you invite them?  i hate to make them opt-out
19:40 < chrisc> k

-- PatrickPatrick - 26 Oct 2003

-- BrianSzymanski - 26 Oct 2003

Stallman two week logs summary sorted by number of "hits"

site        raw hits  ratio to total

total      4004299   1.0000
www      1017381   0.2541
ontario      446579   0.1115
nyc      324122   0.0809
bolivia      316053   0.0789
seattle      261911   0.0654
germany      239733   0.0599
boston      212482   0.0531
chicago      156661   0.0391
sydney      156062   0.0390
atlanta      144056   0.0360
hamilton   92617   0.0231
montreal   76243   0.0190
austria      74438   0.0186
mexico      72887   0.0182
austin      47104   0.0118
newjersey   42238   0.0105
cleveland   39893   0.0100
twincities   39148   0.0098
rockymountain   37378   0.0093
uk      36045   0.0090
richmond   30045   0.0075
radio      29676   0.0074
india      26788   0.0067
print      25710   0.0064
maritimes   25487   0.0064
nycap      14387   0.0036
windsor      9387   0.0023
france      6186   0.0015
congo      2377   0.0006
melbourne   726   0.0002
colombia   294   0.0001
belgium      186   0.0000
northcoast   19   0.0000
belgium2   0   0.0000
canarias   0   0.0000
imcts      0   0.0000
mayday      0   0.0000
shared      0   0.0000
tech2      0   0.0000

see jpg and png for a selection.

-- StefaniB - 05 Nov 2003
  • most active sites, jpeg :
Topic attachments
I Attachment Action Size Date Who Comment
highest.jpgjpg highest.jpg manage 66 K 06 Nov 2003 - 06:11 UnknownUser most active sites, jpeg
Topic revision: r13 - 06 Nov 2003, StefaniB
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