• facilitator for next meeting [akb]
• sarai contact people [shoji]
• philly servers [shoji]
• RAM reimbursement [akb]
• loudeye report back
• secondary MX [brianski]
• New cooperative servers (hosting?) [Arc]
• IMC mirroring/backups [Arc]

**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Jan  4 16:13:26 2003

Jan 04 16:13:26 -->   kellan (~kellan@host-66-81-70-136.rev.o1.com) has joined #meeting
Jan 04 16:13:33 <Arc>   hey kellan
Jan 04 16:13:35 <kellan>   hey
Jan 04 16:13:36 <Arc>   you're pretty good at facilitation, you planning to be around for an hour or two?
Jan 04 16:13:45 *   kellan gulps.
Jan 04 16:13:47 <kellan>   wasn't.
Jan 04 16:13:48 <kellan>   but i can try.
Jan 04 16:13:53 <Arc>   and is someone logging?
Jan 04 16:14:10 <kellan>   i have to say i haven't been tracking imc-tech closely for 2 months
Jan 04 16:14:13 <brianski>   i am logging
Jan 04 16:14:26 <Arc>   brian, BX doesnt work right for logging
Jan 04 16:14:35 <Arc>   nor does ircii, afaik
Jan 04 16:14:44 <brianski>   err, how so?
Jan 04 16:14:48 <Arc>   xchat and mirc are the best two
Jan 04 16:14:56 <kellan>   i'm logging w/ xchat.
Jan 04 16:14:59 <brianski>   i've got ircii, it seems to work, but whatev.
Jan 04 16:15:04 <Arc>   read your logfile, see if its legible (no extended characters etc)
Jan 04 16:15:09 <kellan>   at the least i'll stay connected for the entire time.
Jan 04 16:15:15 <brianski>   it is
Jan 04 16:15:19 <brianski>   ok we've got logging.
Jan 04 16:15:19 <Arc>   brian, with timestamps?
Jan 04 16:15:22 <mtoups>   yeah BX is dumping numbers into the file where the ANSI colors are
Jan 04 16:15:24 <kellan>   great. so we have logging convered
Jan 04 16:15:31 <Arc>   cool.
Jan 04 16:15:37 <shoji>   i have a quick agenda item
Jan 04 16:15:41 <mtoups>   for me that is
Jan 04 16:15:51 <Arc>   ok has someone setup a meeting wiki yet?
Jan 04 16:15:54 <shoji>   regarding sarai
Jan 04 16:16:07 <kellan>   okay, agenda, and then do people want to do a quick round of intros?
Jan 04 16:16:23 <Arc>   yea
Jan 04 16:16:29 <brianski>   no
Jan 04 16:16:47 <kellan>   so agenda items?
Jan 04 16:17:26 <akb>   agenda item: pick a facilitator for the next meeting that will send out advance notice and assemble and agenda 
Jan 04 16:17:49 <Arc>   hold on ill setup the wiki
Jan 04 16:18:01 <akb>   'nother item, RAM reimbursement for sarai
Jan 04 16:18:10 <shoji>   agenda item: find two-ish people who i can instruct about contacting the datecenter to get sarai rebooted
Jan 04 16:18:55 <shoji>   i was also asked to do a quick report about new open philly servers
Jan 04 16:19:22 <kellan>   ok.  anything else?
Jan 04 16:20:22 <kellan>   alright, i would find it useful if people did a quick intro, its traditionally how we started these meetings
Jan 04 16:21:01 <kellan>   kellan, long time imc-tech volunteer, not as involved lately, work largely on the syndciation stuff, also work on protest.net
Jan 04 16:22:55 <kellan>   hmmm. are people not talking?  or am i severly lagged?
Jan 04 16:23:56 ---   Disconnected ().
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Jan  4 16:23:56 2003

**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Jan  4 16:24:00 2003

Jan 04 16:24:00 -->   kellan (~kellan@host-66-81-70-136.rev.o1.com) has joined #meeting
Jan 04 16:24:01 ---   Topic for #meeting is http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/IrcJan04NetworkWideTech 
Jan 04 16:24:01 ---   Topic for #meeting set by Arc!irc@localhost at Sat Jan  4 16:22:03
Jan 04 16:24:01 ---   Notify: rabble is online (kropotkin.indymedia.org).
Jan 04 16:24:11 <Arc>   wiki is setup.
Jan 04 16:24:14 <kellan>   okay.  i don't think i should facilitate as i'm getting disconnected
Jan 04 16:24:43 <Arc>   i think its ok, as long as you can reconnect
Jan 04 16:25:10 <kellan>   problem is i can't tell if i'm lagged or disconnected (shared dialup)
Jan 04 16:25:29 <Arc>   would connecting through a server help?
Jan 04 16:25:48 <kellan>   nope.  i'll try to keep going, as long as someone else is also logging.
Jan 04 16:25:51 <kellan>   did we do intros?
Jan 04 16:25:56 <Arc>   not yet
Jan 04 16:26:00 <forrest>   just a quick note, the gpg multiple signing thing doesn't work yet, only commercial pgp does that currently.
Jan 04 16:26:06 <Arc>   can everyone plop their agenda items onto the wiki?
Jan 04 16:26:13 <forrest>   (i mentioned it last time, looked into it)
Jan 04 16:26:28 <akb>   the last agenda item was a brief summary of the loudeye -> paranode situation
Jan 04 16:26:42 <akb>   we should set an order then do intros
Jan 04 16:26:47 <kellan>   perhaps we can wait update the wiki at the end of the meeting?  just to keep people here and focused.
Jan 04 16:27:01 <shoji>   let's do sarai things early
Jan 04 16:27:17 <Arc>   kellan, we typically put agenda items on the wiki so everyone can look at them and refer to them without having to backscroll
Jan 04 16:27:22 *   brianski agrees with akb, shoji and kellan
Jan 04 16:27:32 <kellan>   Arc: ok.
Jan 04 16:28:03 <kellan>   sounds like shoji wants to get his stuff in early.  so i propose we discuss items in this order:
Jan 04 16:28:07 <kellan>   * facilitator for next meeting
Jan 04 16:28:07 <kellan>   * sarai contact people
Jan 04 16:28:07 <kellan>   * philly servers
Jan 04 16:28:07 <kellan>   * RAM reimbursement
Jan 04 16:28:07 <kellan>   * loudeye report back
Jan 04 16:28:14 <Arc>   i think it was Toni's idea origionally
Jan 04 16:28:18 <kellan>   as it is, looks like a short meeting.
Jan 04 16:28:27 <Arc>   kellan, I have two items on the wiki (posted to list) as well
Jan 04 16:28:42 <shoji>   ... which are ...
Jan 04 16:28:44 <shoji>   ?
Jan 04 16:28:51 <Arc>        * New cooperative servers (hosting?) [Arc]
Jan 04 16:28:51 <Arc>        * IMC mirroring/backups [Arc]
Jan 04 16:29:19 *   brianski wonders where secondary MX falls in the proposed agenda items?
Jan 04 16:29:50 -->   rovin_nz1 (fwuser@213.150.47.62) has joined #meeting
Jan 04 16:29:52 <kellan>   brianski: we should add it.  as this meeting is mostly about sarai so far
Jan 04 16:30:19 <brianski>   alrightee then
Jan 04 16:30:42 <kellan>   okay, proposed agenda:
Jan 04 16:30:43 <kellan>   * facilitator for next meeting
Jan 04 16:30:43 <kellan>   * sarai contact people
Jan 04 16:30:43 <kellan>   * philly servers
Jan 04 16:30:43 <kellan>   * RAM reimbursement
Jan 04 16:30:43 <kellan>   * loudeye report back
Jan 04 16:30:43 <kellan>   * New cooperative servers (hosting?) [Arc]
Jan 04 16:30:43 <kellan>   * IMC mirroring/backups [Arc]
Jan 04 16:30:47 <kellan>   everyone ok?
Jan 04 16:31:11 <kellan>   lets do intros.
Jan 04 16:31:19 <Arc>   can we set times for these?
Jan 04 16:31:20 <shoji>   with secondary mx coming in after sarai contact people or some such
Jan 04 16:31:30 <brianski>   shoji - sounds good
Jan 04 16:31:33 <rovin_nz1>   can we also talk about this whole syndication / topic imc thing?
Jan 04 16:31:42 <kellan>   rovin_nz1: perhaps if we get there.
Jan 04 16:31:45 *   rovin_nz1 is sorry for just dropping in
Jan 04 16:31:48 <kellan>   we've got a pretty full agenda
Jan 04 16:31:53 <kellan>   but there is another meeting in 2 weeks.
Jan 04 16:31:56 <rovin_nz1>   fair enough..
Jan 04 16:32:10 <shoji>   sarai contact people and philly servers should take 1 minute each
Jan 04 16:32:28 <kellan>   Arc: do you think we need to?  the first set shouldn't take more then 20 minutes.  the last 2 items are more involved.
Jan 04 16:32:33 <Arc>   shoji, are they announcements?
Jan 04 16:32:56 <shoji>   depends
Jan 04 16:33:05 <Arc>   it totally depends. especially the secondary mx issue
Jan 04 16:33:19 <Arc>   are most of these announcements?
Jan 04 16:33:37 <shoji>   let's just do intros for now and leave timelimits at the discretion of the facilitator
Jan 04 16:33:53 <rovin_nz1>   that makes for long and paiful meetings
Jan 04 16:33:54 <kellan>   i think we should set 5 minutes max for the first 4 items, add 2ndary MX above coop severs, and imc mirroring and give those 3 10 minutes, and see how it goes
Jan 04 16:33:59 <kellan>   alright.
Jan 04 16:34:01 <Arc>   shoji, whenever we do that the meetings take HOURS
Jan 04 16:34:07 <shoji>   sounds wise
Jan 04 16:34:07 <shoji>   ok
Jan 04 16:34:08 <kellan>   i think we've discussed the agenda enough.
Jan 04 16:34:16 <kellan>   lets evaluate where we are in 20 minutes.
Jan 04 16:34:32 <Arc>   ok
Jan 04 16:34:38 <rovin_nz1>   ok
Jan 04 16:34:55 <shoji>   intro: i am from philadelphia and like doing software development and also end up doing sysadmin work for philly.  i am the contact for sarai's colo facility
Jan 04 16:35:27 <kellan>   intro:  kellan, long time imc-tech volunteer, not as involved of late, work largely on syndication and programming, also invovled with protest.net
Jan 04 16:35:42 <kellan>   people jump in at this point.
Jan 04 16:35:53 <Arc>   intro: I'm Arc from Ithaca.  Currently working on an IMC vid on hacker activism and coding Ogg-related stuff.  Founder of the Freeform codebase.
Jan 04 16:36:06 <rovin_nz1>   i'm from Aotearoa (new zealnd). I'm not a tech but am trying to help bridge the gap between general and tech issues.
Jan 04 16:36:13 <akb>   i'm alan in dc.  projects i've been working on are syndication of multimedia, hosting of high quality newsreal episodes
Jan 04 16:36:13 <brianski>   intro: from ithaca, been involved locally since april, a little bit globally more recently.
Jan 04 16:36:54 <mtoups>   intro: matt from pittsburgh IMC.  doing tech work as well as other stuff for pittsburgh, wanting to do more for global.
Jan 04 16:36:54 <kellan>   forrest, jebba, mtoups, rabble?
Jan 04 16:37:06 ---   Arc gives channel operator status to kellan
Jan 04 16:37:06 ---   Arc removes channel operator status from Arc
Jan 04 16:37:25 <kellan>   rabble says he is just listening in, but won't be participating
Jan 04 16:37:34 <kellan>   alright.
Jan 04 16:37:58 <kellan>   now i've been away from the most recent meetings, do people still want strict facilitation were we raise hands and maintain a queue?
Jan 04 16:38:33 <Arc>   up to you, but I'd suggest it personally
Jan 04 16:38:33 <shoji>   i don't want strict facilitation but certainly wouldn't mind it
Jan 04 16:38:43 <kellan>   okay.  lets start with it, and see how it goes
Jan 04 16:38:50 *   brianski wants iron fist dictation, i mean... facilitation
Jan 04 16:38:54 <rovin_nz1>   can we not start out with simple polite...
Jan 04 16:39:01 <rovin_nz1>   '...' for "i'm not finished"?
Jan 04 16:39:21 <kellan>   first item, pick a facilitator for next meeting who will collect agenda items, make announcements, and generally try to get people here.
Jan 04 16:39:37 <kellan>   Arc has been doing this, perhaps its time for someone else to take a term?
Jan 04 16:39:42 <kellan>   a turn, i mean.
Jan 04 16:39:52 *   kellan done
Jan 04 16:39:56 <forrest>   i belive i'm just listening. 
Jan 04 16:40:14 *   Arc twinkles enthusiastically
Jan 04 16:41:04 <akb>   i suggested it but will not be able to attend the next meeting
Jan 04 16:41:18 <kellan>   okay.  i can take this on, with its low time commitment, and i hope someone will take it upon themselves to nag me about it.
Jan 04 16:41:23 *   Arc raises
Jan 04 16:41:32 <kellan>   arc go ahead
Jan 04 16:41:55 <Arc>   I'll likely be in DC at the convergence as well, so someone *HAS* to take it on or it wont happen
Jan 04 16:42:01 <Arc>   tho I may be able to attend, as i did last time.
Jan 04 16:42:01 <Arc>   end
Jan 04 16:42:23 <kellan>   rovin_nz1: perhaps we can make sure together it happens as you've got an issue you want discussed.
Jan 04 16:42:47 *   rovin_nz1 would love that
Jan 04 16:43:12 <kellan>   okay.  i think we can move on to how to sarai contact info
Jan 04 16:43:15 <kellan>   shoji?
Jan 04 16:44:09 <shoji>   sarai is in a datacenter on the outskirts of philadelphia.  i used to be in physical proximity to sarai, but now i am not.  but the datacenter is staffed 24/7.  getting sarai rebooted just requires an email or a call.  i thought it would be good to ask two or so folks
Jan 04 16:44:53 <shoji>   to hold the contact instructions and have sarai rebooted.  someone suggested that it be two folks from seperate timezones.  i don't mind if it is more than two or who as long as they are responsible folks
Jan 04 16:45:14 *   rovin_nz1 raises
Jan 04 16:45:18 *   shoji done
Jan 04 16:45:20 *   brianski raises
Jan 04 16:45:25 <kellan>   rovin_nz1, then brianski
Jan 04 16:45:38 <rovin_nz1>   oh right...
Jan 04 16:45:47 *   akb raises
Jan 04 16:45:54 <rovin_nz1>   i just wanted to ask why so few contact people...
Jan 04 16:46:00 <rovin_nz1>   when sarai goes down i see it as a critical...
Jan 04 16:46:03 *   shoji raises in reference to rovin
Jan 04 16:46:15 <rovin_nz1>   situation where most imc's are out of email contact with each other...
Jan 04 16:46:39 <rovin_nz1>   that ruined my local imc's editorial systme
Jan 04 16:46:44 *   brianski defers to shoji
Jan 04 16:46:44 <rovin_nz1>   (please reply?)
Jan 04 16:46:47 <kellan>   shoji, you have direct response?
Jan 04 16:46:48 -->   DiJ (~papari@d200.pat1.nas.panafonet.gr) has joined #meeting
Jan 04 16:47:11 <kellan>   * sarai contact people
Jan 04 16:47:11 <kellan>   * philly servers
Jan 04 16:47:11 <kellan>   * RAM reimbursement
Jan 04 16:47:11 <kellan>   * loudeye report back
Jan 04 16:47:11 <kellan>   * New cooperative servers (hosting?) [Arc]
Jan 04 16:47:11 <kellan>   * IMC mirroring/backups [Arc]
Jan 04 16:47:22 <kellan>   sorry, that was to DiJ :(
Jan 04 16:47:32 <shoji>   i am not deadset on just two folks.  but rebooting sarai should be a last resort.  i dunna want the datacenter flooded with multiple requests for sarai reboots.  still i am happy to pass along the necessary info to 4 folks instead of 2 if folks think that's necessary
Jan 04 16:47:42 <shoji>   still i would rather not post up the information publically
Jan 04 16:47:50 *   kellan agrees
Jan 04 16:47:58 <shoji>   as formally it should be someone from my company emailing the data center
Jan 04 16:48:04 <shoji>   and it is also a serious security issue
Jan 04 16:48:17 *   shoji done
Jan 04 16:48:21 <kellan>   brianski?
Jan 04 16:48:45 *   shoji notes that more that multiple people in philly know the process
Jan 04 16:49:00 <brianski>   matze has been noticing these outages first from what i've seen i think he'd be a good person to give the contact info to. i am willing, if trusted enough. i have the advantage that i cylce thru timezones :-) end.
Jan 04 16:49:11 <kellan>   akb?
Jan 04 16:49:26 <kellan>   then i'm inseting myself on the stack after akb, then rovin
Jan 04 16:49:36 <akb>   i wanted to point out the existence of imc-tech-emerg@lists.cat.org.au
Jan 04 16:49:59 <akb>   and suggest that volunteers be solicited on listwork ...
Jan 04 16:50:42 <akb>   and thought be given to how they might be contacted 
Jan 04 16:50:56 <akb>   end
Jan 04 16:51:34 *   shoji raises, not in direct response
Jan 04 16:51:51 <kellan>   i agree, its important to have a way to contact these people. i also wanted to point out that stefani and deanna should probably get right of first refusal as they have done a lot of work keeping sarai up.  and that recent expirence with riseup has indicated its good to have people in the US so that the phone calls don't get too expensive, but other then that matze would be an excellent canidate
Jan 04 16:52:05 <kellan>   rovin_nz1, then shoji, then we should be wrapping up.
Jan 04 16:52:20 <kellan>   or at least moving towards a proposal
Jan 04 16:52:48 <rovin_nz1>   just wanted to make sure we have a list of poeple...
Jan 04 16:52:57 <rovin_nz1>   who will be asked to take the task on...
Jan 04 16:53:09 <rovin_nz1>   so we can record somewhere who to contact next time.
Jan 04 16:53:10 <rovin_nz1>   end
Jan 04 16:53:32 <rovin_nz1>   (i have no idea even who i can email)
Jan 04 16:53:34 <kellan>   shoji?
Jan 04 16:54:08 <shoji>   my proposal is that i will pass along the info to deanna and stefani and matze and maybe akb (because he is regional) and ask them to email imc-tech-emerg@lists.cat.org.au if they email or call in a reboot request
Jan 04 16:54:20 -->   rovin (fwuser@213.150.47.62) has joined #meeting
Jan 04 16:55:11 *   kellan raises
Jan 04 16:55:38 <kellan>   i agree with that.  and that we should put this on the wiki, and make annoucements to communications, tech, and listwork
Jan 04 16:55:47 <kellan>   anyone?
Jan 04 16:56:29 *   rovin volunteers
Jan 04 16:56:37 <kellan>   shoji: can you make sure to contact these people in the next day or so, and let us know if they feel up to doing it.
Jan 04 16:56:38 <shoji>   cool
Jan 04 16:56:40 rovin rovin_nz1 Jan 04 16:56:50 <kellan>   and then rovin can make the announcments, and update the wiki, and all that goodness
Jan 04 16:57:02 <kellan>   alright.
Jan 04 16:57:05 <shoji>   i will send out an email right now
Jan 04 16:57:13 <kellan>   shoji: you're still on.  philly server report back?
Jan 04 16:57:36 *   kellan notes its been 17 minutes
Jan 04 16:58:38 <shoji>   the philly tech collective is excited to note that we are setting up two servers to run rundandant services
Jan 04 16:58:51 <shoji>   and we are excited to work with other folks who need server space
Jan 04 16:59:02 *   Arc raises
Jan 04 16:59:08 <shoji>   done
Jan 04 16:59:11 <kellan>   Arc: go ahead
Jan 04 16:59:25 <Arc>   shoji, will they be running icecast2, and will they be available for streaming?
Jan 04 16:59:31 <Arc>   end
Jan 04 16:59:59 <shoji>   icecast2 is running on those servers.  streaming is very bandwidth intensive and so while they are available, you'll need to contact us about your needs and expected usage
Jan 04 17:00:13 <shoji>   but we have had other imcs stream from our servers in the past
Jan 04 17:00:14 <shoji>   done
Jan 04 17:00:21 *   kellan raises
Jan 04 17:00:43 <kellan>   shoji: is it fair to say you are looking to host new imcs?  or just you're open to the idea?
Jan 04 17:00:51 <shoji>   we are looking to host new imcs
Jan 04 17:00:57 <kellan>   cool
Jan 04 17:00:59 <kellan>   anyone else?
Jan 04 17:01:06 *   Arc raises
Jan 04 17:01:09 <kellan>   Arc?
Jan 04 17:01:21 <Arc>   nevermind. i found the info.
Jan 04 17:01:31 <kellan>   akb: RAM?
Jan 04 17:01:48 ---   [rabble] is away (gone to oakland to get more gear)
Jan 04 17:02:29 <akb>   in late oct deanna sent a message to imc-sysadmin saying the situation w/ sarai was urgent
Jan 04 17:02:54 <akb>   there was some discussion on the mailing list and a conference on irc
Jan 04 17:03:28 <akb>   it was decided to max out sarai's ram, i purchased 1.5GB of ram and sent it to shoji in philly
Jan 04 17:03:41 <akb>   the cost was $170 (and change)
Jan 04 17:04:03 <akb>   this has been aired on imc-tech, no objections to the reimbursement were raised
Jan 04 17:04:24 *   Arc raises
Jan 04 17:04:33 <akb>   rabble, who manages imc-tech paypal has the receipt
Jan 04 17:05:15 <akb>   i was hoping we can concense on the reimbursement and give the customary week on imc-tech before rabble reimburses from that account
Jan 04 17:05:17 <akb>   end
Jan 04 17:05:25 <kellan>   Arc?
Jan 04 17:05:58 <Arc>   I move we consense to reimburse the full cost of the ram to alan
Jan 04 17:06:13 <Arc>   it sounds like there was already consensus. anyone here block?
Jan 04 17:06:15 <Arc>   end
Jan 04 17:06:20 *   kellan agrees
Jan 04 17:06:29 *   rovin agrees
Jan 04 17:06:42 <kellan>   does anyone know who is cutting checks on the imc-tech account these days?
Jan 04 17:06:44 *   shoji agrees
Jan 04 17:06:44 <--   rovin_nz1 has quit (Quit: Leaving)
Jan 04 17:06:47 *   brianski agrees
Jan 04 17:07:07 <Arc>   (rabble?)
Jan 04 17:07:21 <akb>   i thought rabble would paypal it
Jan 04 17:07:30 <kellan>   Arc: not likely.  but i might be seeing him today, we'll talk about it.
Jan 04 17:08:01 <kellan>   okay.  agreed.  we'll give imc-tech 1 week, (while we figure out how to get a check cut :) and then we'll reimburse alan.  and we expect no disagreement.
Jan 04 17:08:21 <kellan>   so, who wants to do a loudeye status update?
Jan 04 17:08:31 *   brianski raises
Jan 04 17:08:41 <kellan>   brianski go ahead
Jan 04 17:08:54 <brianski>   while we're on sarai can we discuss the feasability of a 2nd mx? end
Jan 04 17:09:09 *   shoji raises
Jan 04 17:09:11 <kellan>   shoji: are you going to be here after loudeye?
Jan 04 17:09:19 <kellan>   shoji go ahead
Jan 04 17:09:19 *   akb raises
Jan 04 17:09:20 <shoji>   sure
Jan 04 17:09:35 <shoji>   i was going to talk mx but we can talk mx after loudeye
Jan 04 17:09:41 *   Arc suggests we talk about the second MX along with the "backup/mirroring" discussion
Jan 04 17:09:47 <kellan>   brianski: i expect loudeye to be short
Jan 04 17:09:49 <kellan>   akb?
Jan 04 17:09:58 *   brianski doesn't care, was just a suggestion
Jan 04 17:10:04 <akb>   i can give the loudeye -> paranode report back
Jan 04 17:10:14 <kellan>   akb, please do.
Jan 04 17:10:30 <akb>   brief review ...
Jan 04 17:11:13 <akb>   multimedia for imcs on stallman and a few others was hosted at loudeye throught troy who used to work there
Jan 04 17:11:31 <akb>   this relationship dated from seattle '99, there is about 100GB of material
Jan 04 17:11:52 <akb>   images.indymedia.org is the primary interface to the material
Jan 04 17:12:14 <akb>   troy mirrored the content to paranode.com and switched dns
Jan 04 17:12:51 *   kellan raises
Jan 04 17:12:52 <akb>   he has asked that instead of one account accessing all the media there that individual imcs get seperate accounts
Jan 04 17:13:09 *   shoji raises
Jan 04 17:13:12 *   Arc raises
Jan 04 17:13:12 <akb>   contact him (troy@nack.net) if you administer an imc
Jan 04 17:13:15 <akb>   with media there
Jan 04 17:13:37 <akb>   space on the new resource appears to be short, i believe he said 6GB
Jan 04 17:13:38 -->   humble (irc@localhost) has joined #meeting
Jan 04 17:13:57 <akb>   with another 20GB expected to reclaimed through cleanup of duplicates etc
Jan 04 17:14:20 <akb>   i don't know the bandwidth capacity
Jan 04 17:14:56 <akb>   i raised the possibility of installing a p2p app, maybe gnutella, he seemed open to that
Jan 04 17:15:11 <akb>   i think that's it
Jan 04 17:15:15 <akb>   end
Jan 04 17:15:52 <kellan>   my first question is, what is troy and our relationship with paranode?  anyone know?  2nd i hear 2 tech tasks that we need to accomplish beyond the work that jb has been doing to clean up duplicates
Jan 04 17:16:00 <kellan>   1.  re-work push2eye
Jan 04 17:16:16 <kellan>   2.  figure out the p2p stuff we've been talking about for so long.
Jan 04 17:16:20 <kellan>   (probably in that order)
Jan 04 17:16:21 <kellan>   done.
Jan 04 17:16:24 <kellan>   shoji?
Jan 04 17:17:08 <shoji>   are there any networkwide streaming resources at the moment?  (e.g. can we stream video or audio from paranode?)  also what is paranode exactly
Jan 04 17:17:26 <shoji>   over
Jan 04 17:17:31 <kellan>   Arc?
Jan 04 17:17:59 *   akb raises
Jan 04 17:18:25 <kellan>   akb you're after arc
Jan 04 17:18:30 <Arc>   im just wondering the same as you asked, whats our relationship with either loudeye or paranode, and why are we allowing ourselves to be so dependent on the charity of a for-profit media corporation
Jan 04 17:18:41 <Arc>   end
Jan 04 17:18:54 <Arc>   sorry
Jan 04 17:19:00 <kellan>   akb?
Jan 04 17:19:01 <akb>   i forgot about the linking issue
Jan 04 17:19:18 <Arc>   i also wanted to ask, whats the useage limitation of paranode.. just real media?
Jan 04 17:19:22 <akb>   arc, did you want to say something else?
Jan 04 17:19:22 <Arc>   end
Jan 04 17:19:32 -->   jiv (jiv@65.171.214.157) has joined #meeting
Jan 04 17:19:59 <akb>   we have a lot of links to realmedia pointing to clients.loudeye.com urls
Jan 04 17:20:26 <akb>   that is now pointing to paranode but we should phase that out
Jan 04 17:20:40 <akb>   and put things in indymedia.org
Jan 04 17:20:55 <kellan>   akb: can you answer any of the questions we raised?  or should someone be designated to contact troy?  (who we should remember is definitely an ally, and should be treated as such)
Jan 04 17:21:17 <akb>   let me say a little more on the linking first
Jan 04 17:21:22 *   shoji had his question answered by email
Jan 04 17:21:34 <kellan>   akb: go ahead.
Jan 04 17:21:48 <kellan>   shoji: after akb can you report on what you know
Jan 04 17:21:57 <akb>   troy said he would install a realserver there is currently not one up
Jan 04 17:22:00 -->   Sheri (~Sheri@s142-179-110-234.bc.hsia.telus.net) has joined #meeting
Jan 04 17:22:05 <akb>   and he would put up the metafile generator 
Jan 04 17:22:15 <akb>   that should fix the broken links we currently have
Jan 04 17:23:00 <akb>   one good piece of news the limiitation before of either making realmedia available through the realserver or http will not be present on paranode
Jan 04 17:23:04 *   kellan asks for a clarification of metafile generator?
Jan 04 17:23:44 <akb>   i don't think i can answer any of the questions raised much
Jan 04 17:23:47 <akb>   rereading them ...
Jan 04 17:23:49 <shoji>   .ram files used to be dynamically generated on loudeye
Jan 04 17:24:03 <shoji>   which are just resource locating text files
Jan 04 17:24:23 *   kellan admits to not knowing much about streaming
Jan 04 17:24:32 <akb>   oh
Jan 04 17:24:39 <shoji>   so a "metafile generator" would just be something that responded to file.ram with a little text file which indicated that the resource was at file.rm
Jan 04 17:24:59 <akb>   i can answer the question about why we're using the donated resource
Jan 04 17:25:11 Sheri shoji Jan 04 17:25:13 <Arc>   please do
Jan 04 17:25:25 <akb>   we wanted to limit the bandwidth and load on stallman
Jan 04 17:25:45 <akb>   with a centralized resource like stallman they have been very significant
Jan 04 17:25:59 <akb>   i recall troy mentioning 40mbps peaks
Jan 04 17:26:20 <akb>   speakeasy, where stallman is hosted has wanted to charge us for bandwidth there
Jan 04 17:26:40 <akb>   load has been a problem throughout stallman's lifetime
Jan 04 17:26:54 <akb>   end
Jan 04 17:26:58 *   shoji raises
Jan 04 17:27:06 Sheri shoji Jan 04 17:27:10 <kellan>   shoji?
Jan 04 17:27:21 *   kellan mentions we're 45minutes in
Jan 04 17:27:30 <shoji>   for disclosure's sake i just wanted to note that sarai uses for-profit entity donated bandwidth  -- over
Jan 04 17:28:07 *   kellan calls on himself
Jan 04 17:28:58 <kellan>   i think this is good news that streaming on stallman will be fixed.  i think we need to get some clarification from troy, and also send out a note asking for help with the 3 tasks we need to make the migration work.  also as Arc notes we need to keep thinking about how to get away from this dependence
Jan 04 17:29:19 <--   jiv (jiv@65.171.214.157) has left #meeting
Jan 04 17:29:21 *   akb raises
Jan 04 17:29:26 <kellan>   does anyone here want to take the lead on fixing push2eye, re-searching p2p, or fixing the links?
Jan 04 17:29:32 *   Arc notes that this is the topic of one of the upcomming agenda items, so prehaps we should move to it next
Jan 04 17:29:51 *   shoji would volunteer to co-research p2p with someone else to keep me honest
Jan 04 17:30:13 *   akb will work w/ shoji
Jan 04 17:30:21 <shoji>   cool
Jan 04 17:30:32 *   kellan notes that alan and josh are stealing the fun projects :)  perks of coming to the meeting
Jan 04 17:30:58 <kellan>   okay, so we still need leads on the other 2 tasks.  alan are you comfortable putting out a spec for this?
Jan 04 17:31:04 *   shoji luaghs diabolically out of turn
Jan 04 17:31:20 <kellan>   a short, informal spec of course
Jan 04 17:31:25 *   Arc raises
Jan 04 17:31:28 <akb>   i hadn't heard about adjusting pushtoeye, i can work on fixing links
Jan 04 17:31:51 *   brianski raises
Jan 04 17:31:52 <kellan>   akb: it seems that we would need to adjust pushtoeye so that each IMC can you a separate account.
Jan 04 17:31:57 <kellan>   brianski go ahead
Jan 04 17:31:59 <akb>   a spec like what exactly?
Jan 04 17:32:09 <kellan>   akb: on sec.
Jan 04 17:32:12 <kellan>   akb: one sec.
Jan 04 17:32:47 *   akb had raised but has np w/ brianski going
Jan 04 17:32:48 <brianski>   i just wanted to clarify - will this server have a .indymedia.org DNS entry so this problem doesn't recur? (if i am misunderstanding the relinking portion of the problem, please ignore me). end
Jan 04 17:33:06 <brianski>   sorry akb, missed ya
Jan 04 17:33:16 <kellan>   brianski: thats a good point.  we'll make sure to do that.
Jan 04 17:33:19 <kellan>   akb: go ahead
Jan 04 17:33:25 <akb>   to answer arc's question re: what is hosted on loudeye/paranode
Jan 04 17:33:34 *   kellan admits he lost track of that of the queue
Jan 04 17:33:37 <akb>   its not just realmedia
Jan 04 17:34:01 <akb>   probably only a small amount is realmedia
Jan 04 17:34:11 <akb>   most of it is images
Jan 04 17:34:49 <kellan>   okay.  i think i might have gotten a little lagged there.
Jan 04 17:34:51 *   Arc nods
Jan 04 17:34:53 <akb>   but anything largish that is server over http is mirrored 
Jan 04 17:35:03 <akb>   to answer brianski
Jan 04 17:35:24 <kellan>   can we get last comments on loudeye?
Jan 04 17:35:32 <akb>   i think the original deal was that clients.loudeye was linked to for loudeye's benefit
Jan 04 17:35:50 *   kellan agrees that was the original deal
Jan 04 17:35:52 <akb>   they wanted the publicity for web spiders or something
Jan 04 17:35:55 <akb>   end
Jan 04 17:36:10 <kellan>   last comments on loudeye?
Jan 04 17:36:12 *   Arc raises again
Jan 04 17:36:22 <kellan>   Arc go ahead (sorry if i missed you)
Jan 04 17:36:45 <Arc>   I think we should move into the server discussion now, since its topic was brought up here
Jan 04 17:36:56 <Arc>   and 2nd MX into the "backup/mirror servers"
Jan 04 17:36:56 <Arc>   end
Jan 04 17:37:57 <kellan>   sounds good.  lets move to the server discussion.  first i want to wrap up this topic.  i'll put together a list of the tech tasks as part of the minutes, akb and shoji will think so more about p2p solutions, and we'll put our questions about paranode out in the minutes, and follow up w/ troy if we need more info.
Jan 04 17:38:09 <kellan>   that sound like a good summary?
Jan 04 17:38:19 *   shoji nods
Jan 04 17:38:49 <kellan>   i also want to do a time/energy check.  people good for another 30-40 minutes?
Jan 04 17:39:01 *   akb is
Jan 04 17:39:09 *   Arc notes he'll have to piss soon, but otherwise ok
Jan 04 17:39:10 *   brianski is fine
Jan 04 17:39:13 <shoji>   i'm here
Jan 04 17:39:24 <DiJ>   ok
Jan 04 17:39:36 <humble>   yep... esp if it's moving to p2p
Jan 04 17:39:47 <kellan>   Arc: okay.  if you disapeear we'll know why.
Jan 04 17:40:01 <Arc>   that was my point in saying it lol
Jan 04 17:40:03 <kellan>   so, arc want to instroduce back/mirroring topics
Jan 04 17:40:20 <Arc>   i want to tackle the new server issue first
Jan 04 17:40:37 ---   brianski is now known as brianski_brb
Jan 04 17:40:49 <Arc>   most IMC servers, especially the ones we depend on, are being hosted gratis by for-profit large corporations
Jan 04 17:41:10 <Arc>   obviously this is a bad thing, but its been needing to be done
Jan 04 17:41:39 <Arc>   servers are reletivly cheap to build, hosting them isnt.  there are a few cooperatives that we could host through cheaply, but we mostly already have a server at each of them
Jan 04 17:42:28 ---   brianski_brb is now known as brianski
Jan 04 17:42:33 <Arc>   I'm in the process of putting together a new cooperative media archive server, monty.indy, which will hopefully be available this summer. it will have to be hosted locally to us because of our need to burn media off of it for shipment
Jan 04 17:43:01 *   mtoups just got disconnected, back, here for more meeting
Jan 04 17:43:07 <Arc>   however, we're still short on servers, and I'd like to bring up this topic.. what are our hosting options for future servers?
Jan 04 17:43:14 <Arc>   end
Jan 04 17:43:16 *   kellan raises
Jan 04 17:43:49 *   forrest raises
Jan 04 17:44:08 <kellan>   i would say this is a good conversation, and one we'll only be able to do part of today in this meeting, but its important we keep bring this up until it gets resolved.
Jan 04 17:44:10 <kellan>   end
Jan 04 17:44:14 <kellan>   forrest, go ahead
Jan 04 17:44:22 *   mtoups raises
Jan 04 17:44:28 <forrest>   thought i was just going to listen, what are the bandwidth requirements for hosting an avg imc website?
Jan 04 17:44:56 *   Arc raises to (maybe) answer
Jan 04 17:44:56 <forrest>   done, sorry
Jan 04 17:45:03 <kellan>   mtoups, go ahead
Jan 04 17:45:07 <kellan>   arc, we'll double back
Jan 04 17:45:19 *   shoji raises
Jan 04 17:45:22 <Arc>   i know.
Jan 04 17:45:23 Sheri shoji Jan 04 17:45:26 <mtoups>   oh forrest, fyi...
Jan 04 17:45:31 <kellan>   shoji, after arc
Jan 04 17:45:32 <mtoups>   if you know mrtg this might be useful:
Jan 04 17:45:33 <mtoups>   http://indypgh.org/~toups/stats/mrtg/howard.rem.cmu.edu.html
Jan 04 17:45:47 <mtoups>   note that the pittsburgh IMC is quite new, but that's a graph of our bandwidth useage
Jan 04 17:45:59 <mtoups>   anyway, we're colocated on a university campus for the time being
Jan 04 17:46:38 *   humble raises
Jan 04 17:46:44 <kellan>   humble, after shoji
Jan 04 17:46:45 <mtoups>   which is great b/w, still not strings-free but its something.  we have the opposite problem, lots of bandwidth but low diskspace/cpu time.  however i was going to offer to do secondry mx as we have high uptime and b/w
Jan 04 17:46:51 <mtoups>   done
Jan 04 17:47:07 <kellan>   Arc, then shoji
Jan 04 17:47:08 *   forrest raises
Jan 04 17:47:41 <Arc>   Ok, the "Average" IMC you'd have to calculate, however, most IMCs arent average.  The large IMCs (seattle, dc, nyc, philly, etc) suck down alot more than most
Jan 04 17:48:00 <Arc>   the problem is that the network, if it continues at its current pace, will double before the end of the year.  over 100 to over 200 IMCs.
Jan 04 17:48:10 <Arc>   where are all these IMCs going to go?
Jan 04 17:48:26 <Arc>   Ithaca is doing damned good for a "new" IMC, only a few months old, we suck down almost 10gigs/mo.
Jan 04 17:48:37 *   DiJ raises
Jan 04 17:48:51 <kellan>   shoji, humble, forrest, DiJ
Jan 04 17:48:57 <Arc>   this is something that we really need to look into, because especially for non-us IMCs they may not have the option of fundraising for their own server
Jan 04 17:49:12 <Arc>   one thing ive been thinking heavily about is the cooperative model of server ownership
Jan 04 17:49:34 <Arc>   instead of one IMC hosting it, or one person, have a server thats funded and maintained cooperativly between many IMCs
Jan 04 17:49:41 *   kellan raises
Jan 04 17:49:42 <Arc>   who would fundraise for its hosting.
Jan 04 17:50:03 <Arc>   also, if we had proper backup/mirroring, we could afford something like an OC3 prehaps and a server room somewhere to host them.
Jan 04 17:50:04 <Arc>   <end>
Jan 04 17:50:30 *   kellan notes that i think we're aware of the problem, and we should focus on a few solutions, and perhaps schedule a special meeting to talk about the issue further
Jan 04 17:50:32 Sheri shoji Jan 04 17:50:35 <kellan>   shoji go ahead
Jan 04 17:50:47 *   rovin says aotearoa did 1.6G last month
Jan 04 17:51:40 Sheri shoji Jan 04 17:51:45 >shoji<   *poke*
Jan 04 17:51:48 <shoji>   as a quick follow up to Arc, philly -- frustrated with our downtime issues -- decided to fundraise for two new servers (to do high availability stuff with) and invited other IMCs and other nonprofits to cooperately own the servers with philly.  we found two local nonprofit partners and have one server, though not all the money for the second
Jan 04 17:52:08 <shoji>   one quick thing to note is that DIY server stuff is expensive
Jan 04 17:52:20 <shoji>   and DSLs and shared hosting are much cheaper
Jan 04 17:52:55 <shoji>   an OC3 is really expensive -- a 1.1 or 1.5 mbps Sdsl is expensive but less so.  also one could host an active based imc on an admittedly commercial shared hosting web account
Jan 04 17:53:26 <shoji>   but all of my options tend back towards corporate donated solutions
Jan 04 17:53:26 <shoji>   end
Jan 04 17:53:27 *   Arc raises
Jan 04 17:53:30 *   brianski raises
Jan 04 17:53:34 <kellan>   humble, go ahread
Jan 04 17:53:57 <humble>   first wanted to share http://ender.indymedia.org/webalizer/usage_200206.html
Jan 04 17:54:31 <humble>   which shows web activity on ender during the g8 in calgary (peak day almost 4 gigs)
Jan 04 17:54:47 *   kellan suggests discussing how much more time we need in 7 minutes.
Jan 04 17:55:11 <humble>   local sites worked fine over DSL as long as loudyeye was working... no good for rich media serving
Jan 04 17:56:14 <humble>   our approach is to form a media co-op around the server and get other non-profits on the server, using IMC technology (eg. sf active) and then charge them for bandwidth plus a small premium to cover IMC traffic
Jan 04 17:56:29 <humble>   see http://ender.indymedia.org for an overview
Jan 04 17:56:53 <humble>   were currently doing approx. 2 gigs a day, mostly IMC
Jan 04 17:57:17 <shoji>   how many nonprofit clients do you have?
Jan 04 17:57:39 *   kellan smacks shoji with fish
Jan 04 17:57:41 <humble>   four at present
Jan 04 17:58:15 <Arc>   humble, end?
Jan 04 17:58:22 <kellan>   humble: you done?
Jan 04 17:58:41 <humble>   point is... we need p2p... so that anyone can add a client and help us out... from the kid with a dsl to the porn palaces tht have the big pipes that want to help us
Jan 04 17:58:51 <humble>   done
Jan 04 17:58:55 *   shoji agrees
Jan 04 17:59:02 *   kellan also agrees
Jan 04 17:59:07 *   shoji raises
Jan 04 17:59:09 *   akb disagrees
Jan 04 17:59:18 <kellan>   forrest, DiJ, brian, arc, and then we need a time check
Jan 04 17:59:21 <forrest>   i may be able to provide hosting for several smaller imcs, ashland has a citywide fiber net, with 2Mb up 10 Mb down connections w/ multiple statics for around $100/month, i have one of these, and could host a few small imcs, with more being possible if i dig up people around town with business class connections, or people want to fund it.  no monthly transfer limits.  dunno if that'd be useful or not. 
Jan 04 17:59:24 <forrest>   done
Jan 04 17:59:41 <kellan>   DiJ: ?
Jan 04 17:59:45 <DiJ>   [delayed intro: Costas from IMC Athens] There are stats for athens.indy traffic at http://athens.indymedia.org/stats/. It's about 30-40Gbytes/month (that's taken from the apache logs, not the real tcp traffic). We expect to have a great rise since Greece holds the EU presidency till june (and the upcoming demonstrations in thessaloniki and other cities).
Jan 04 17:59:54 <DiJ>   I think most european imc's would prefer hosting outside europe due to high costs in europe and legal issues.
Jan 04 17:59:55 <DiJ>   end
Jan 04 18:00:08 <kellan>   brianski: ?
Jan 04 18:00:21 *   rovin had fun but is going now
Jan 04 18:01:02 *   brianski lowers
Jan 04 18:01:28 <kellan>   Arc?
Jan 04 18:01:48 <Arc>   I'm looking to pull down a T1.  I believe the owner of a locally owned ISP will drop us one at-cost provided we only host non-profits on it..
Jan 04 18:01:56 *   Sheri raises hand
Jan 04 18:02:14 *   akb raises
Jan 04 18:02:26 <kellan>   Sheri, akb: we're about to do a time check.
Jan 04 18:02:30 <Arc>   but he has a OC3 (for the record, thats 165M) and only has a third of it "turned on".  We could probobally get up to a T3 on that, but a T1 would be a good start.  It would likely cost around $1k/mo.
Jan 04 18:02:32 <shoji>   i also raised a bit ago
Jan 04 18:02:34 <Arc>   for a T1
Jan 04 18:02:36 *   brianski apologizes for his lag.
Jan 04 18:02:51 <Sheri>   http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-finance/2002-December/001654.html
Jan 04 18:02:52 <Arc>   this would need to be spread amoung many servers.
Jan 04 18:02:58 <Arc>   end.
Jan 04 18:03:13 <shoji>   msg Arc you could get a SDSL with t1 speeds for a few hundred at most
Jan 04 18:03:16 <Sheri>   this is a possible funding source for some streaming media servers - sent to imc tech by deedee halleck. end.
Jan 04 18:03:28 *   kellan wags finger at sheri for talking out of turn
Jan 04 18:03:40 <kellan>   okay.  so it seems like we still have a fair amount of interest in this topic.
Jan 04 18:03:45 <kellan>   we still need to disucss 2ndary MX
Jan 04 18:03:52 *   brianski re-raises
Jan 04 18:04:03 <kellan>   we've been on this topic for about 25 minutes (i think)
Jan 04 18:04:21 <kellan>   are people wanting to spend 15 more minutes on this?  more, less.
Jan 04 18:04:29 <kellan>   taking hands to discuss extending this topic.
Jan 04 18:04:33 *   Sheri apologizes profusely.
Jan 04 18:04:48 *   Arc suggests we go into the backup topic and continue this in two weeks
Jan 04 18:04:53 <akb>   extend but less than 15
Jan 04 18:04:58 <Arc>   2nd MX + backup/mirroring IMCs
Jan 04 18:05:01 *   shoji suggests extending
Jan 04 18:05:27 <akb>   maybe get a stack then close?
Jan 04 18:05:33 *   shoji stack then close
Jan 04 18:05:46 *   shoji re-raises
Jan 04 18:05:48 <kellan>   great.
Jan 04 18:05:52 *   brianski raises
Jan 04 18:05:59 <kellan>   one stack, and we continue next week.  aim for 10 more minutes top.
Jan 04 18:06:09 <kellan>   akb, brianski, shoji, anyone else?
Jan 04 18:06:12 -->   zapATIsta (abbie@d133.as27.nwbl1.wi.voyager.net) has joined #meeting
Jan 04 18:06:19 <akb>   on p2p
Jan 04 18:06:20 <kellan>   i meant, next meeting.
Jan 04 18:06:52 <akb>   shall i go?
Jan 04 18:06:55 *   zapATIsta just got in; didn't know there was a meeting
Jan 04 18:06:59 <kellan>   sorry, akb, go ahead
Jan 04 18:07:06 <kellan>   zapATIsta: we're working on improving that
Jan 04 18:07:18 <akb>   i think p2p relieving bandwidth is down the road
Jan 04 18:07:43 <akb>   clients most have special software, that's a high barrier to cross
Jan 04 18:08:17 <akb>   a shorter term for p2p in the imc i think is potential new audiences
Jan 04 18:08:59 <akb>   ie lots of people searching for content, plus efforts at finding non copyright problematic works 
Jan 04 18:09:13 <akb>   i like the idea of bitzi.com
Jan 04 18:09:34 <akb>   which is a catalog of works on p2p networks
Jan 04 18:09:58 <akb>   i'm not sure what the model that the SF IMC / linefeed imcs use
Jan 04 18:10:29 <akb>   but i understand their colocation is cheap, $50 per U per month (?)
Jan 04 18:10:36 <akb>   and the bandwidth is plentiful
Jan 04 18:10:50 *   kellan can speak to that if people want
Jan 04 18:10:53 <akb>   i think this is in part due to the price crash in bandwidth in SF
Jan 04 18:11:16 <--   Sheri has quit ()
Jan 04 18:11:29 <akb>   i've heard insane prices, like less than $100 / mbit in bulk
Jan 04 18:11:44 <shoji>   yah
Jan 04 18:11:55 <akb>   we should find out more about that model
Jan 04 18:11:58 <akb>   end
Jan 04 18:11:59 *   kellan taps watch
Jan 04 18:12:09 <kellan>   brianski?
Jan 04 18:12:28 <brianski>   re: mx2, perhaps a wg should form with those involved with sarai, mtoups, and others to see where we can get the resources needed
Jan 04 18:12:30 <brianski>   end
Jan 04 18:12:43 *   kellan agrees w/ brianski
Jan 04 18:12:53 <kellan>   shoji?
Jan 04 18:13:15 *   mtoups nods
Jan 04 18:13:16 <shoji>   just quickly wanted to note that there are traditional methods of rerouting requests for bandwidth intensive content ala akamai
Jan 04 18:13:42 <shoji>   some of them are kinda simple -- e.g. "edge" servers which rewrite each image tag to request the image from a different server
Jan 04 18:14:12 <shoji>   a live database of places to get content tied to in dynamic code that can do the image tag rewrites can go a really long way
Jan 04 18:14:41 <shoji>   i would be happy to be on the second mx server workinggroup.  philly's server uses postfix (which may help) and could help in that regard
Jan 04 18:14:42 <shoji>   over
Jan 04 18:15:00 <kellan>   alright.  we're done with that.  so we've discussed the hosting problem, it needs to be
Jan 04 18:15:00 <kellan>   discussed in more depth, we've raised a few possiblity and different
Jan 04 18:15:00 <kellan>   models which we can explore, and we need to form a working group to
Jan 04 18:15:00 <kellan>   follow up on a 2ndary MX
Jan 04 18:15:07 <kellan>   (ugh, sorry about the newlines)
Jan 04 18:15:34 <kellan>   next we were going to discuss mirroring, backup, and 2ndary MX in detail (but i think we've done 2ndary MX)
Jan 04 18:15:49 <kellan>   is there more that people want to talk about?
Jan 04 18:15:53 *   Arc raises
Jan 04 18:15:57 <kellan>   Arc go ahead
Jan 04 18:16:05 ---   Notify: jason is online (kropotkin.indymedia.org).
Jan 04 18:16:08 <Arc>   lets just dive into the mirroring/backup, it shouldnt take long
Jan 04 18:16:14 <Arc>   and the call it end
Jan 04 18:16:15 <Arc>   end
Jan 04 18:16:19 *   shoji raises re 2ndary MX
Jan 04 18:16:32 <kellan>   shoji is it quick?
Jan 04 18:16:34 *   shoji unraises 
Jan 04 18:16:41 *   shoji drops -- can get discussed offline
Jan 04 18:16:43 <kellan>   Arc, go ahead and introduce the topic
Jan 04 18:16:48 *   humble says sayonara - gotta go
Jan 04 18:16:56 <Arc>   ok. many IMCs have been having problems with uptime... 
Jan 04 18:17:09 <Arc>   AFAIK, there isnt a single IMC that has a mirror server setup
Jan 04 18:17:48 <Arc>   also, zero.bandwidthcoop.org just had its hard drive crash. some IMCs weren't backed up, and we lost a ton of articles across the board because the backups we had were two weeks old
Jan 04 18:18:04 <Arc>   i know freeform can do mirroring, I believe that with some work the other codebases can as well
Jan 04 18:18:11 *   shoji raises
Jan 04 18:18:24 <Arc>   the mirroring will spread bandwidth load between them, and if one goes out, the other will take the full load.
Jan 04 18:18:37 <Arc>   this will also help spread the impact of a sudden high load on a single IMC
Jan 04 18:18:39 *   kellan raises
Jan 04 18:18:41 *   brianski notes only 3 were backed up at all, about 10-15 were completely lost 
Jan 04 18:18:56 *   kellan whimpers, 'ouch!'
Jan 04 18:19:02 <Arc>   most of it is mysql/postgresql mirroring, with master/slave servers.
Jan 04 18:19:04 *   akb ouch!
Jan 04 18:19:40 <Arc>   i dont think anyone will disagree that this is a good idea, so id like this discussion to concentrate on the who where and how aspects
Jan 04 18:20:09 <Arc>   the only thing we need to watch for is storage, which will multiply by the number of mirrors each site has
Jan 04 18:20:10 <Arc>   end
Jan 04 18:20:17 <kellan>   shoji go ahead
Jan 04 18:21:29 <shoji>   philly is doing something similar.  instead of having one local server we are having two local servers with the same content on both hard drives.  we are also doing mysql replication to ensure the content is the same on both servers, and using heartbeat to shift traffic to one if the other goes down.  i think shifting to high availability tactics is good as our resources grow
Jan 04 18:21:31 *   shoji over
Jan 04 18:22:08 <--   humble has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
Jan 04 18:22:31 <kellan>   i just wanted to mention a vapor project thats been discussed for a while called edgenet that came out of activist-techie meeting in bristol.  about allowing people to share their dsl connections
Jan 04 18:22:47 <kellan>   the website on kropotkin seems to be broken, but rabble has been bottom lining it and would love someone else to take it over.
Jan 04 18:23:01 <kellan>   also found DIBS the other day, http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~emin/source_code/dibs/
Jan 04 18:23:11 <kellan>   which is about doing distributed encrypted backups
Jan 04 18:23:31 <kellan>   and last note is to mention that the techfed (notes.techfed.net) has said it wants to work on systems of backups
Jan 04 18:23:37 <kellan>   and we should be using RAID
Jan 04 18:23:42 <kellan>   end
Jan 04 18:23:51 *   Arc raises again
Jan 04 18:24:07 <kellan>   Arc go ahead.  anyone else?
Jan 04 18:24:19 <Arc>   RAID is a good idea, but expensive
Jan 04 18:24:25 <shoji>   what is edgenet?
Jan 04 18:24:27 <Arc>   and the main reason for server outtage is network problems
Jan 04 18:24:28 <shoji>   oh wait i see
Jan 04 18:24:38 *   shoji raises
Jan 04 18:24:40 <Arc>   Philly's idea of having two local mirror servers is great, but what if their connection goes down?
Jan 04 18:25:00 <Arc>   its the "all your eggs in one basket" concept. thats why setting up a centralised IMC server room is a bad idea
Jan 04 18:25:27 <Arc>   we can make that work, however, with mirroring - and not in the same facility, heck, not even in the same COUNTRY. that way no one government can shut down a site
Jan 04 18:26:06 *   kellan raises
Jan 04 18:26:08 <Arc>   freeform is being setup (already is mostly there) so that *EVERYTHING* is stored in the database, images, audio/video, everything
Jan 04 18:26:23 <Arc>   so that SQL mirroring alone will take care of it.
Jan 04 18:26:28 <Arc>   and SQL backups
Jan 04 18:26:50 <Arc>   I feel what we need to discuss seriously is "hey you can host new IMCs, can you host a mirror for us?"
Jan 04 18:27:31 <Arc>   Ithaca's greatest problem with building a community is everytime we get active something bad happens, we go out for a week or two, and people loose faith. we gotta start over again.
Jan 04 18:27:39 <Arc>   and I dont think we're alone in that.
Jan 04 18:27:53 <Arc>   no net connection is 100%, unless its really expensive atleast
Jan 04 18:27:55 <Arc>   end
Jan 04 18:28:01 <kellan>   shoji, go ahead
Jan 04 18:28:19 *   kellan asks people to watch time, as meeting is wrapping up
Jan 04 18:28:44 <shoji>   linux software raid is cheap and fast  -- over
Jan 04 18:29:19 *   Arc raises
Jan 04 18:29:32 <kellan>   couple of points.  Mir takes the opposite approach, writing everything out to files, so those can be mirrored with an rsync, this has worked for the Germans as its been important for them to get content outside of their country.
Jan 04 18:29:53 <kellan>   i also wonder if we can encourage mirroring on a sister IMC level, rather then trying to coordinate it through global
Jan 04 18:30:26 <kellan>   not knowing bandwidth needs has traditionally been a barrier to getting mirroring
Jan 04 18:30:31 <kellan>   (and hosting)
Jan 04 18:30:39 <kellan>   and i had one more point, but i'm getting tired and forgot it.
Jan 04 18:30:52 <kellan>   Arc go ahead.  and then i propose we wrap up.
Jan 04 18:30:55 <Arc>   RAID isnt the end-all of backing up.  if the power supply dies it will kill both/all drives, if the server is taken by feds, etc. its good to keep a server running, but the best backups happen 1) live, and 2) in geographically different locations
Jan 04 18:31:01 <Arc>   I'm not asking for us to coordinate it
Jan 04 18:31:07 <Arc>   but we're all (mostly) local techs
Jan 04 18:31:24 <Arc>   and I'm more or less announcing, and looking for software logistics for, us to start coordinating it
Jan 04 18:31:42 *   kellan agrees that all makes sense
Jan 04 18:31:43 <Arc>   not just ithaca, but network-wide. start doing some serious server peering
Jan 04 18:31:56 <Arc>   "We'll mirror you if you mirror us"
Jan 04 18:31:58 <Arc>   end
Jan 04 18:32:02 *   shoji nods
Jan 04 18:32:23 *   brianski twinkles emphatically in a desperate attempt to speed things along
Jan 04 18:32:31 <kellan>   okay.  how are people feeling about being done?
Jan 04 18:32:33 <kellan>   any last points?
Jan 04 18:32:42 <kellan>   i'm happy to write up minutes.
Jan 04 18:32:47 *   Arc asks about software. sf-active? active? dada?
Jan 04 18:33:28 <kellan>   anyone?  everyone awake?  stand up and stretch.
Jan 04 18:33:29 *   brianski announces ongoing discussion of 2ndry backup, etc. will go on in #sarai for interested parties
Jan 04 18:33:44 <kellan>   Arc: i don't understand the question.
Jan 04 18:33:45 <shoji>   ok i go to #sarai
Jan 04 18:33:54 <kellan>   also, suggestions for the next meeting agenda?
Jan 04 18:33:55 <shoji>   arc -- any software can be used for a mirror
Jan 04 18:34:00 <akb>   good meeting
Jan 04 18:34:01 <shoji>   you copy the software on both servers
Jan 04 18:34:06 <shoji>   you mirror the database
Jan 04 18:34:06 *   brianski raises
Jan 04 18:34:07 <Arc>   what are the software logistics with mirroring active/sf-active/dada
Jan 04 18:34:07 <akb>   i have to go
Jan 04 18:34:08 <shoji>   whoop whoop
Jan 04 18:34:16 <akb>   cheers
Jan 04 18:34:25 <Arc>   guess it doesnt matter tho lol
Jan 04 18:34:30 <kellan>   Arc: good question. 
Jan 04 18:34:33 <kellan>   we'll ask.
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Jan 04 18:34:37 <brianski>   ahh fuck it, are we over? 
Jan 04 18:34:39 <mtoups>   i do a tarball and an mysqldump
Jan 04 18:34:47 <kellan>   brianski: yup we're done.
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Jan 04 18:34:57 <brianski>   good, then my profanity is excused
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Jan 04 18:35:18 <kellan>   Arc: I noticed that this meetings wiki page is under a different sub folder as the other ones.
Jan 04 18:35:22 <kellan>   do we need to move it?
Jan 04 18:35:27 <brianski>   question - how would we go about setting up a dns record for mx2.indy?
Jan 04 18:35:30 <Arc>   when everyone spontaniously gets up and leaves, the meeting is over :-)
Jan 04 18:35:34 <Arc>   kellan, i dont know
Jan 04 18:35:36 <Arc>   i just added it.
Jan 04 18:35:47 <kellan>   okay.  i suppose we can just link from the Imc-Tech page.
Jan 04 18:35:49 <Arc>   i have no idea where stuff is.  i dont think most people do
Jan 04 18:36:05 *   Arc hates tech.indy - its completely useless
Jan 04 18:36:19 *   kellan hates docs.indy
Jan 04 18:36:31 *   brianski hates www.indy
Jan 04 18:36:34 <brianski>   oops :-)
Jan 04 18:36:37 <kellan>   i like the old wikis, but i think usability has suffered dramatically with the whole new wiki thing
Jan 04 18:36:53 <kellan>   brianski: i'm right there with you.  i tried to get it abolished but oh well :)
Jan 04 18:37:10 <Arc>   yea! we need to abolish the global site!
Jan 04 18:37:10 <kellan>   okay.  i'll send out minutes, and post them. if you don't see them by tomorrow morning, nag me.
Jan 04 18:37:17 <Arc>   lets start a movement behind it lol
Jan 04 18:37:27 <Arc>   kellan, how about posting minutes to the imc-tech list
Jan 04 18:37:31 <Arc>   it might encourage more people to attend
Jan 04 18:37:42 <kellan>   Arc: yeah, thats what i always used to do.
Jan 04 18:37:46 <Arc>   cool
Jan 04 18:37:55 <kellan>   and start sending agenda items to imc-tech to build momentum for the next meeting
Jan 04 18:38:17 <Arc>   also if whoever does the contact could hit up the LOCAL tech lists notifying them of the global tech meeting
Jan 04 18:38:29 <Arc>   and where the locals dont have a tech list, the general list
Jan 04 18:38:35 <mtoups>   i assume dns@indymedia will have the ability to enact the mx record
Jan 04 18:38:56 <kellan>   Arc: that wasn't historically neccessary, but we've gotten so big it might be.
Jan 04 18:39:00 <kellan>   mtoups: yup.
Jan 04 18:39:06 <Arc>   last time i did that we had like 30 people show up - atleast half of whom I had never met
Jan 04 18:39:18 <Arc>   well probobally closer to 25..
Jan 04 18:39:23 *   kellan cowers at the idea of facilitating that!
Jan 04 18:39:30 <mtoups>   though i'd assume they'd want something more than a random email from me to do something drastic like change the DNS for indymedia.org
Jan 04 18:39:40 <kellan>   alright, i'm out of here, got to soak up some sun before returning to MA
Jan 04 18:39:46 <brianski>   yeah kellan, good job today! busiest meeting i've ever been two (out of two, but still)
Jan 04 18:40:01 <Arc>   yea kellan great job facilitating today
Jan 04 18:40:05 <kellan>   thanks
Jan 04 18:40:08 <Arc>   i remembered you were pretty good at it
Jan 04 18:40:10 <Arc>   you and micah
Jan 04 18:40:11 <mtoups>   yeah rock on kellan
Jan 04 18:40:18 <brianski>   mtoups - unfortunately, i think just an email will do the trick
Jan 04 18:40:20 <DiJ>   thanks kellan
Jan 04 18:40:27 <brianski>   perhaps along with some bugging on irc
Jan 04 18:41:02 <mtoups>   hah.  it'd be funny if i got them to change the indymedia.org A record to 206.183.2.199
Jan 04 18:41:14 <brianski>   well, i think that one might raise an eyeball
Jan 04 18:41:33 *   brianski guesses before going there... goatse?
Jan 04 18:41:46 <mtoups>   heh.  no, though sometimes worse
Jan 04 18:41:53 <Arc>   free republic?
Jan 04 18:42:01 <mtoups>   close
Jan 04 18:42:07 <Arc>   cnn? lol
Jan 04 18:42:37 <Arc>   at magazine.com
Jan 04 18:42:53 <Arc>   or something like that
Jan 04 18:43:24 <brianski>   heehee
Jan 04 18:43:28 <mtoups>   frontpagemag.com ... david horowitz's crazed ranting
Jan 04 18:43:39 <mtoups>   can be amusing at times
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