ImcCEE061130Log

Table of content :

podsumowanie (pl)

(pl) W czacie CEEurope, byliśmy 3 z .pl i 3 z .by, mniej-więcej m\xF3wiliśmy o straty serwer\xF3w [ahimsa] [Fremont colo się zamyka] i indymedia włochy się reorganizują. Log: https://docs.indymedia.org/view/Local/ImcCEE061130Log

Nie mieliśmy czas iść na kolejnych tematach: sytuacji w Polsce (medi\xF3w, neonazizm) i samizdat.

Następne spotkanie: czwartek 21 grudnia #europe https://irc.indymedia.org

wiki: http://belarus.indymedia.org/7070

summary (en)

(en) In the CEEurope chat Thu 30.11.06, we (3 poland people 3 belarus people) mostly talked about the big events of loss of servers [ahimsa] [Fremont colo closing] and imc italy getting reorganised. Log: https://docs.indymedia.org/view/Local/ImcCEE061130Log

We didn't have time to go into the last few themes: the situation in Poland (media, neonazizm) and samizdat.

Next meeting: Thursday 21 December #europe https://irc.indymedia.org

wiki: http://belarus.indymedia.org/7070

ImcCEEurope chat log 30.11.2006

--- Log opened czw lis 30 18:12:29 2006
19:29 -!- xavi [...] has joined #europe
19:29 <@boud> xavi, angdraug hi - /me = busy right now - back
by 20:00 (half an hour from now)
19:30 < angdraug> boud: Hi! np!
20:02 -!- s [...] has joined #europe
20:03 < s> hello
20:03 -!- s [...] has quit [Client Quit]
20:03 -!- Li_Eugene [...] has joined #europe
20:04 -!- s [...] has joined #europe
20:04 < s> test
20:04 < s> hello all
20:04 < angdraug> s: hi
20:05 < s> angdraug: ku!
20:06 <@boud> s hi
20:06 <@boud> Li_Eugene hi
20:06 < Li_Eugene> hi
20:07 < xavi> hi, jestem xavier
20:07 <@boud> i'll be only half-present for the next 10 minutes
or so - feel free to introduce yourselves, start chatting  :)
20:08 < s> xavi: hi!
20:08 < angdraug> I think everyone except Li_Eugene was here
last time?
20:08 <@boud> i think we have 2 from pl 2 from bel + li_eugene
from i don't know...
20:08 < s> i am on unsecure connection :( 
20:08 < xavi> hi, i\xB4m didleth, by xaviers computer
20:08 < s> so i'll be very accurate in self-introducing etc.
:)
20:09 < angdraug> s: we know you already :)
20:09 < angdraug> Li_Eugene: do you know s?
20:09 < Li_Eugene> no i don't
20:10 < angdraug> speaking of personal security, this is an open
channel
20:10 < angdraug> and the log of this meeting will be posted
on imc-europe mailing list
20:10 < Li_Eugene> i just reconnect using ssl...
20:10 < s> i know :)
20:10 -!- Li_Eugene [...] has left #europe [Leaving]
20:10 < xavi> I will be in a halb hour - Didleth
20:10 < s> the difference is in such things like IP etc...
20:10 < angdraug> it's just to remind everyone what not to speak
of
20:12 < angdraug> do we need moderation today?
20:12 < s> the only thing why unsecure connection disturb me,
is possibility of bounds between connection and person, that is
possible in real time, but impossible over reprinted logs :) so
just keep this in mind
20:12 < s> i don't think we need moderation 
20:12 -!- Li_Eugene [...] has joined #europe
20:12 < s> so my vote is : no
20:13 < Li_Eugene> what is about voting?
20:13 < angdraug> agreed. if someone thinks we need to moderate,
speak up
20:14 < angdraug> Li_Eugene: when there is an IRC meeting with
many people, it is usually moderated: people speak in turns, and
moderator announces these turns
20:15 < angdraug> with 6 people (including Xavier and Didleth
on the same computer), we probably don't need it
20:15 < Li_Eugene> agreed
20:15 < s> Li Eugene: so i voted against moderation here & today,
angdraug agreed
20:15 < s> boud is away for a 10 minutes
20:16 < s> xavi? do you agree to run without moderation?
20:18  * boud back (more or less)
20:19 <@boud> i think last time we more or less collectively
did moderation
20:20 <@boud> do we need introductions? - we all know each other
except li_eugene 
20:21 < angdraug> I think Li_Eugene is from Belarus, I've seen
this name on the site
20:21 <@boud> and for clarification: xavi is xavi+didleth, not
XaVieR
20:21 < s> :)
20:21 < Li_Eugene> angdraug knew me (i him) (we with mendoza
together was in BSF)
20:21 < s> Li_Eugene: I heard about you
20:23 < Li_Eugene> s and s_r is one?
20:23 < angdraug> ok, so we do know each other. seems like 3
from by and 3 from pl. no one from hu this time?
20:24 < angdraug> boud: probably makes sense to announce this
meeting on ukraine.i.o and ru.i.o, too?
20:25 <@boud> you're welcome to do so :) - i don't hold a monopoly
on announcements...
20:26 <@boud> xavi: BSF jest Belarus Social Forum 
20:26 < angdraug> ok, I'll do it when we agree on the next meeting
date
20:27 <@boud> :)
20:28 < s> angdraug, Li_Eugene: today here was a fast-growing
discussion on all sub-threads of 'Electronic Belarus' topics....
20:28 < s> so take a look at it when you have time
20:28 < s> there's quite interesting  directions :)
20:28  * s apologized for off-topic
20:28 < angdraug> s: I've noticed, but didn't have time to catch
up. I still need to respond to the "roadmap" thread first :)
20:29 <@boud> well, we don't have a topic list yet :P - xavi/didleth
said they'll be back at around 19:40 UTC, meaning another 10 minutes
20:29 < s> btw -- i'm learning ruby, but not so fast as I hope
from beginning
20:29 < angdraug> s: not sure if it's off-topic, how about giving
a brief summary of what's going on there?
20:30 < s> to be short -- now it's a discussion on class and
social portrait of young IT-outsourcers
20:30 < s> and it varies from anti-consumerism to class wars
20:31 < s> there are some liberal pro-capitalists here :)
20:31 < s> my favourite sub-thread for now is https://belarus.indymedia.org/7871#id7890
20:31 < s> :)
20:31 < s> boud: i'll translate summary of discussion later,
when have time
20:32 < s> i think it's quite interesting not only for Belarus
20:32 < s> main point of discussion is a question ' are the IT
prols support for regime or it's burriers ' :)
20:33  * s shuts up to give other a chance to speak :)))
20:37 < s> while there's a silence, i'd like to summarize a bit
what was a november for imc-by, if you don't mind
20:37 < s> :)
20:38 < s> it could be the beginning of re-incarnation of spring
activity IMHO
20:38 < s> different important topics arised that attracted some
attention from quite different people
20:39 < s> main are : mentioned discussion about "Electronic
Belarus", municipal reforms, belarusian social forum...
20:39 < s> and there were some crisises
20:39 < s> that on my opinion imc-by passed successfully
20:40 < s> more bloody crisis was an issue of social forum
20:40 < s> some old-school activists arised a stupid flame
20:40 < angdraug> s: discussion of dekret 18 is probably also
worth a mention
20:41 < s> angdraug: yes i forgot :) sure :)
20:41 < s> and i am really happy that imc-by passed BSF wars....
20:41 < angdraug> s: I still am not convinced it wasn't started
as a deliberate provocation
20:41 < s> people who were accusing each other in stealing money,
sexism and all other deadly sins
20:42 < s> anngdraug: i think no matter was it inspired by KGB
or not
20:42 < s> it was i crisis anyway
20:42 < s> some semi-secret things were spoken openly
20:42 < s> lots of dirt...
20:43 <@boud> what's "Electronic Belarus" ?
20:43 < s> to each other
20:43 < s> "Electronic Belarus" is a state program of IT improvement
20:43 < s> state authorities responsible for it were accused
in stealing money
20:44 <@boud> ok
20:44 < s> and there was a sarcastic article about such state
politics
20:44 < s> that was grown to the discussion on class/social portrait
of young IT prols
20:44 <@boud> prols = professionals? (or proletarians?)
20:45 < s> both professionals and 'proletarians' (in semi-sarcastic
sense) 
20:46 < s> to summarize BSF wars -- imc-by was able to resist
to such speculations and localize them without any censorsip,
due to only hard and open critisism of such ways of provocative
'discussions'...
20:46 <@boud> xavi (didleth)? czy jesteś? jeśli jesteś, mogłbym
pr\xF3bować podsumować w polskia
20:47 < angdraug> boud: due to the huge difference in salary
between IT and the rest of economy (mostly due to offshore IT
outsourcing and related tax avoidance schemes), most IT professionals
don't consider themselves proletarians
20:48 <@boud> of course - that's probably the case in poland
too - and may be a source of the difficulty of "linux" people
accepting that e.g. "web2.0" is essentially a development of indymedia,
trying to coopt into the commercial world
20:48  * s finished summarizing impression of November for imc-by
:)
20:50 <@boud> so IMHO that sounds like imc-by is functioning
quite effectively
20:51 <@boud> by "localize them [the speculations/BSF wars]"
do you mean just adding comments or also wikifying articles or
also adding/substracting focuses (themes) or changing votes for
links to focuses (themes)?
20:51  * boud s/subst/subt/g
20:51 < s> as i understand, imc-by resisted such things only
by adding commentaries 
20:52 < s> and by wikifying items that was reported as a personal
abuse by participants
20:52 < s> and by removing 'illegally' published personal data
20:52 <@boud> did people edit the wikified items? in other words,
did it become something like a real wiki effect?
20:53 < s> don't remember :) that was an extremelly fast flame
:)
20:54 < s> as a result, almost all of non-involved in discussion
claimed that they are treating as stupidity or provocation behaviour
of both sides :)
20:54 < angdraug> boud: I think it wasn't
20:55 < Li_Eugene> ... i need to go home - so i join in 1 hour
20:55 < s> i'm not sure i'll be here, but i try to
20:55 <@boud> ok, see you soon li_eugene
20:56 < s> Li_Eugene: good luck, see you!
20:57 < Li_Eugene> see you all, hope we make something usefull 
20:57 <@boud> xavi? jesteś?
20:58 -!- Li_Eugene [...] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
21:01 <@boud> so essentially we're 3 now: s, angdraug, boud -
how about we each say what topics we think we can most usefully
discuss? 
21:01 < angdraug> I'm interested in what's going on in poland,
and (surprise :) in discussion of Samizdat
21:02 < angdraug> s: what about you?
21:03 < s> exactly the same :)
21:03 <@boud> i guess my topics are:
21:04 <@boud>  * general indymedia crisis?/endofempire? * imc
torun organising  * samizdat
21:04 <@boud> i don't want to talk too much about the first topic,
but i think it's worth some discussion
21:05 <@boud> the 2nd overlaps with "what's going on in poland"
21:05 <@boud> and the 3rd overlaps with "samizdat" :)
21:05 <@boud> there are "?" on both parts of general indymedia
crisis?/endofempire?
21:06 < angdraug> the title for the first one is too exciting
to allow you to not to speak of it :)
21:06 <@boud> ok
21:07 < xavi> hi, excuseme, but i had several things to do. didleth
soon will be in her computer. i\xB4m reading 
21:07 < xavi> the commentaries and i\xB4m learning a lot of things,
i\xB4m too much unplugged on social situation in Belarus
21:07 <@boud> would you like to add a topic?  we have: 1. general
indymedia crisis?/endofempire?   2. imc torun organising / what's
going on in poland   3. samizdat
21:09 < xavi> i have reading and article about the situation
of the nazism in Poland, and i\xB4m a little worry, i don\xB4t know
that
21:09 < xavi> this is an possible theme :-)
21:09 < xavi> ?
21:10 <@boud> 1. general indymedia crisis?/endofempire?   
21:10 <@boud> 2. imc torun organising 
21:10 <@boud> 3. what's going on in poland  - nazism in poland  
21:10 <@boud> 4. samizdat
21:11 < angdraug> boud: fine with me
21:11 < s> agree
21:12 <@boud> ok, i'll try to summarise what i see on topic 1.
21:12 < xavi> ok, but i hav to do an advertising: i haven \xB4t
no idea about this crisis in indymediaa
21:13 <@boud> 1.1 imc italy reorganising: 
21:13 <@boud> 1.2 ahimsa: https://docs.indymedia.org/view/Sysadmin/AhimsaMigration
21:13 <@boud> 1.3 fremont coop closing => most latin american
imc's need new servers
21:13 <@boud> 1.4 US elections - bush lost some political power
- less chance of Iran attack
21:13 -!- Didleth [...] has joined #europe
21:13 -!- Didleth [...] has quit [Client Quit]
21:14 -!- Didleth [...] has joined #europe
21:14 <@boud> Didleth - czy chcesz dodawać temat? Mamy: 
21:14 < Didleth> hi, a had problmes with connection
21:14 <@boud> 1. general indymedia crisis?/endofempire?   
21:14 <@boud> 2. imc torun organising 
21:14 <@boud> 3. what's going on in poland  - nazism in poland  
21:14 <@boud> 4. samizdat
21:14 < Didleth> no, I don't have new topics :)
21:14 < angdraug> boud: is the ucimc flame related to this topic?
21:15 <@boud> it could be - i'll repost 1.1 ... for Didleth
21:15 <@boud> 1.1 imc italy reorganising: 
21:15 <@boud> 1.2 ahimsa: https://docs.indymedia.org/view/Sysadmin/AhimsaMigration
21:15 <@boud> 1.3 fremont coop closing => most latin american
imc's need new servers
21:15 <@boud> 1.4 US elections - bush lost some political power
- less chance of Iran attack
21:15 <@boud> first 1.1
21:15 <@boud> in fact people said that IMC Italy is announcing
that it's officially closing down
21:16 <@boud> i've lost the URL - it was an email on their archives
21:16 <@boud> my guess is that they are going to reorganise
21:16 <@boud> but imc italy is one of the biggest, well-functioning
imcs, so it's a bit scary
21:17 <@boud> 1.2 
21:17 <@boud> there's a tech guy who was hosting a huge amount
of indymedia servers (ahimsa)
21:17 < Didleth> do you think imc-italyist no-open?
21:18 <@boud> http://italy.indymedia.org/
21:18 <@boud> whoaaaa!
21:19 < s> hell
21:19 <@boud> they have stopped open publishing it looks like
- już nie robią publikację otwartą1
21:20 <@boud> archives and a forum are available
21:20 < Didleth> but why?
21:20 <@boud> why: http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/italy-list/2006-November/1119-pa.html
21:21 <@boud> i don't know any details
21:21 <@boud> but they mainly say it's about radically reorganising
21:21 < Didleth> ok, I'm reading - but I have had latin only
in 2 years ; )
21:22 <@boud> babelfish.altavista.org  (commercial but zero-cost)
21:22 <@boud> next point: 1.2 there's a tech guy who was hosting
a huge amount of indymedia servers (ahimsa)
21:23 <@boud> he did a great job, was always around on irc or
email when needed for server problems
21:23 < Didleth> hmmm....I don't understand italian ;/
21:24 < angdraug> that was babelfish.altavista.com
21:25 < angdraug> http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=it_en&url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.indymedia.org%2Fpipermail%2Fitaly-list%2F2006-November%2F1119-pa.html
21:25 < Didleth> ow funktioniert :-) thanks :-)
21:25 <@boud> a few weeks ago he declared that he was frustrated
with process issues among IMC UK techies 
21:26 < s> don't look very terrible -- looks like radical revelation
21:26 < s> i told about italy case -- Jebba case is terrible
:)
21:26 <@boud> and he asked for all indymedia services to be taken
off his server
21:27 <@boud> in principle, that's good - it should lead to more
decentralisation
21:27 <@boud> in practice, it's a very big practical problem
21:27 <@boud> work on progress for finding new servers is here:
https://docs.indymedia.org/view/Sysadmin/AhimsaMigration
21:28 <@boud> 1.3
21:28  * s will be back in 10 minutes, sorry 
21:29 < angdraug> hm, this ahimsa issue certainly sounds like
happened before
21:29 < Didleth> I understand - we don't have so much people
who can do it
21:29 < angdraug> I vaguely remember transition off Active engine
couple of years ago
21:29 <@boud> there's a cooperative of people with computer servers
in san francisco that has been hosting many activist sites, indymedia
and non-indymedia
21:29 < angdraug> wasn't it supposed to decentralize stuff?
21:30 <@boud> including i think SFBay and most of the latin american
imc's - especially which use "sf-active"
21:30 <@boud> this cooperative (i forget the name - something
like community cooperative - but in fremont, california)
21:30 <@boud> this cooperative said it's closing down (apparently
not enough money to pay for server space and other costs)
21:31 <@boud> i haven't seen any "official" announcement
21:31 <@boud> the latin american imc's are indymedia's big success
in terms of crossing the digital divide IMHO
21:31 <@boud> so if we lost them, that would be a BIG loss
21:32 <@boud> and then my point 1.4:
21:32 <@boud> indymedia and stresses on us as a network are related
to the real social-political world
21:33 < Didleth> wait a moment - could yopui mir siad in polinsh
21:33 < Didleth> why sholud we lost american indymedia?
21:33 < Didleth> i havent understand - it has nothinng to du
with ahimsa?
21:33 <@boud> punkt 1.3 jest niezaleźny od punktu 1.2
21:34 < Didleth> czyli chodzi o to ze indymedia latynoamerykanskie
moga starcic serwer, tak?
21:34 <@boud> jest serwery w California, gdzie są hostowane serwery
od IMC SFBay (san francisco bay area) i od większość łaciśnkiej
ameryki
21:35 <@boud> nie ,,mogą stracić", raczej ,,straczą"
21:35 <@boud> nie ,,mogą stracić", raczej ,,już straczą"
21:35 < Didleth> dlaczego? 
21:36 <@boud> The CCCP shutdown is not related to the sf.indymedia/indybay
issue
21:36 <@boud> or Indymedia at all -- it's shutting down in general. 
Basically,
21:36 <@boud> the organization that sponsored the project cannot
sustain it
21:36 <@boud> financially, or in terms of managing the project
(accounting and so
21:36 <@boud> forth).  It has been losing money every month and
is now in debt.
21:37 <@boud> that's a quote from someone in IMC SFBay - he said
it's public, not private - but SFBay people did not think of announcing
it 
21:37 <@boud> brak pieniądze
21:38 < Didleth> can we help them?
21:38 < Didleth> how many money they need?
21:38 <@boud> CCCP is something like California Community Cooperative
Project but i'm not sure
21:38 < Didleth> maybe another indymedia-colectives caould to
be helpfull?
21:39 <@boud> ok - i suggest i say point 1.4 and then we can
get back to "what can we do?" questions?
21:40 < Didleth> ok
21:41 <@boud> 1.4 the US parliament elections a few weeks ago
only represent a small political change (Democrats and Republicans
are nearly the same party), but this change happened due to one
of the big successes where indymedia played a big role - the opposition
to the attack on Iraq and the 15.02.2003 world-wide demonstrations
of 12-15 million people
21:42 <@boud> and i think although the chance of war against
Iran still exists, it has become much more politically difficult
for Bush/Cheney to make the attack on Iran
21:43 <@boud> so IMHO this is a very *positive* thing in which
i think what we have been doing in indymedia over many years has
shown that it will not only contribute to USA withdrawing from
Iraq, but i think this is stopping the attack on Iran
21:43 <@boud> in other words:
21:44 <@boud> the effect of our actions has taken time (about
3 1/2 years) but we shouldn't feel too negatively - i think we
are having a (good) real effect on the world
21:45 <@boud> so while we have these 3 big "reorganising" events
internally, we should not feel too unhappy
21:45 <@boud> ok, i'll let people react - end-of-fidel castro
speech  
21:45 <@boud> whoops
21:46 <@boud> not "end-of-(fidel-castro)"
21:46 < Didleth> ; )
21:46 <@boud> rather end-of- (fidel-castro-type-speech)
21:46 <@boud> end
21:46 < angdraug> seems like we have two related kinds of problems
21:46 < Didleth> do you really think some party in usa can make
peace? i don't think so
21:47 <@boud> i'm not saying that
21:47 < angdraug> 1) people frustrated with bad process
21:47 < angdraug> 2) project benefitting large part of the project
not getting enough money to cover its costs
21:48 < angdraug> seems like two sides of the same coin to me
21:48 < Didleth> and how many money they have?
21:48 <@boud> can you say 2) again? it's a bit confused...
21:48 < angdraug> and both related to the ucimc flame on imc-communications
21:48 < angdraug> oops
21:48 < Didleth> then need
21:49 < angdraug> the hosting project (CCCP, right?) was hosting
a lot of IMCs, and wasn't getting anything in return from Indymedia
project, and now we have to deal with it no longer being able
to host these IMCs
21:49 < Didleth> if i'm not wrong, some poeple will to have money
for indymedia-africa, so if it willl be more money, maybe it will
be enougt ;/
21:50 <@boud> ah i understand: 2) CCCP project benefitting large
part of indymedia project ...
21:50 < angdraug> boud: yes, sorry about initial confusion
21:50 < Didleth> so...its not only finanzielle problem?
21:51 < angdraug> Didleth: I don't know enough, but it seems
to be that it is a problem of dealing with money
21:51 < angdraug> which is more of a process question, really
21:51 < Didleth> boud, what is dealing in polish?
21:52 <@boud> robić rzeczy
21:52 <@boud> zarządzić 
21:52 < angdraug> Didleth: what I mean by "dealing with money"
is:
21:53 < angdraug> money is an aspect of capitalism
21:53 < angdraug> so we should be very careful with how we obtain
money, count and distribute it, etc.
21:54 < angdraug> in the same time, we can't avoid money altogether
until we abolish capitalism: we need it to live inside it, e.g.
to pay for hosting
21:54 < Didleth> do you think, they are take moneyfrom capitalist
or politics?
21:54 < angdraug> (live inside capitalism, that is)
21:55 < angdraug> Didleth: depends on who do you mean by "they"
21:55 < angdraug> in case of ucimc, they did take money from
their municipality
21:55 <@boud> municipality = miasto (rząd miasta)
21:56 < Didleth> I understand...
21:56 <@boud> ucimc = IMC Urbana Champaign
21:56 <@boud> w USA
21:56 < angdraug> and when this question was raised on imc-communications,
no one was able to say what is Indymedia position or policy on
how this (money) should be approached
21:56 < angdraug> I'm off the soap box
21:56 < angdraug> 
21:58 < Didleth> Did someone to try to contact them and say,
whya it's problem?
21:58 < Didleth> it will be therrbible to lost this indymedia
21:58 <@boud> them = who?
21:58 <@boud> ahimsa?
21:58 <@boud> or CCCP?
21:59 <@boud> or imc italy?
21:59 < angdraug> I think Didleth means CCCP
21:59 <@boud> 1.1 imc italy   1.2  ahimsa  1.3 CCCP 
21:59 < Didleth> peo1.3
21:59  * s back
21:59 <@boud> Didleth - you can email them here: http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/listinfo/sfbay-web
22:00 <@boud> sfbay-web malpa lists.indymedia.org
22:01 < Didleth> it's not a good idea - I ledwo understand this
and english ; )
22:01 < Didleth> but when the problem is dealing of money, maybe
someone scholud just to talk with them
22:02 <@boud> CCCP: http://www.communitycolo.net/
22:02 < angdraug> I just skimmed through imc-finance archives
for oct and nov, no mention of cccp
22:03 <@boud> i wrote and got a reply in private from mark, but
mark said it's public so in principle i 
22:03 <@boud> can quote parts of his email
22:04 <@boud> Hi, there is nothing private that I know of.
22:04 <@boud> We haven't yet posted a story about it on indybay.org,
but we
22:04 <@boud> planned to -- we've just been really busy.
22:04 <@boud> The CCCP shutdown is not related to the sf.indymedia/indybay
issue
22:04 <@boud> or Indymedia at all -- it's shutting down in general. 
Basically,
22:04 <@boud> the organization that sponsored the project cannot
sustain it
22:04 <@boud> financially, or in terms of managing the project
(accounting and so
22:04 <@boud> forth).  It has been losing money every month and
is now in debt.
22:04 <@boud> There hasn't been much that indybay could do, we
are having a hard
22:04 <@boud> enough time affording rent for our space.. we donated
$800 to CCCP
22:04 <@boud> last month (a lot of money for us) but would have
had to donate
22:04 <@boud> $8,000 to make a dent in the debt...
22:04 <@boud> at indybay we are hard at work on forming alternative
hosting
22:04 <@boud> arrangement(s), this includes finding the cheapest
possible
22:04 <@boud> colocation, finding members to form cooperative,
and finding fiscal
22:04 <@boud> sponsorship for the project (safer than putting
it in one person's
22:04 <@boud> name).
22:04 <@boud> I am not aware of any private or sensitive stuff
at all ;)
22:04 <@boud> Feel free to email our list about it, sfbay-web@lists.indymedia.org
22:05 <@boud> end
22:06 <@boud> i think (speculate) that the reason they didn't
ask for money at imc-finance is that $8000 would not be enough
("to make a dent in the debt", means make a small effect)
22:06 < angdraug> agreed
22:07 <@boud> and it would also be for servers which are mostly
non-indymedia servers - so the indymedia network might not be
willing to give (i don't know how much? $20.000) for a US-based
set of servers all in one place
22:07 <@boud> centralisation problem and north america domination
problem
22:07 < Didleth> so, taht they need more that 8000?
22:07 < angdraug> yes
22:08 < Didleth> and wasn'yt it possible to find another serwer?
22:08 < Didleth> which not so expensive is?
22:08 < angdraug> that's what they are doing right now, if I
understand this correctly
22:08 <@boud> this is an old announcement: http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2006/10/24/18323053.php 
- they needed $20.000 for just 3 months
22:09 <@boud> one year: $80.000
22:09 <@boud> (but this may not be a correct calculation - since
they have debt = (pl: dług))
22:09 <@boud> yes they said they're busy finding new servers 
22:10 < Didleth> i have i question
22:10 < Didleth> i konw, that i don't nothing about technicst
problem, so it may be stupid; but it is possible to do server
yourselve?
22:12 < angdraug> Didleth: with the amount of traffic going through
the server, it can't be connected over dialup or adsl: it has
to be a co-location (with direct connection to an ISP)
22:13 < angdraug> so the primary cost is traffic (if you check
numbers on Ahimsa page, it's sometimes tens of terabytes)
22:13 <@boud> dialup = np TPSA przez zwykly telefon
22:13 < angdraug> and costs of running or renting co-location,
too (space rent, electricity, maintainance)
22:14 <@boud> traffic = ile Gigabytow (miliardy byt\xF3w wysyłany
do czytelnik\xF3w) co miesiąc
22:14 < angdraug> I'm away for 5-10 min
22:16 <@boud> didleth - remember that imc poland gets something
like 2000-3000 visitors each day
22:16 < Didleth> ok...I'm understand, it's to expensive...and
in which of serwers are indymedia polska? could we to be in this
same server?
22:17 <@boud> now we are on 3 different servers - one for publishing,
and two static sites where people read articles
22:17 <@boud> we were affected by problem 1.2 ahimsa - we used
ahimsa as our static site for maybe 12 months or so
22:18 <@boud> but that problem is solved (for imc poland0
22:18 < Didleth> couldnt they to be on this same servers, like
we? ahimsa in another problem ;/
22:18 <@boud> yes: some of them are on the same servers
22:19 < Didleth> they are on this same sserver, but trotzdem
they need money to funktionieren? its too much komplieziert ;/
22:19 <@boud> but the principle is to have sites on many different
servers, organised by different people in different countries
etc, so that the system as a whole does not have any centralisation
points
22:19 < angdraug> I'm back
22:20 < Didleth> I know - but it will be better to have central
sever that dont have some indymedia becouse of not much server...
22:20 < Didleth> wb :)
22:20 -!- xavi [...] has quit [Quit: xavi]
22:21 <@boud> Didleth: i think you mean: but it will be better
to have central sever that dont have some indymedia rather than
[zamiast] not many servers  (?)
22:22 < Didleth> no
22:22 < Didleth> Ia mean many server are better that central
server
22:22 <@boud> ah, ok in that case we agree :)
22:23 < Didleth> but central server is better that don't hove
some indymedia
22:23 <@boud> i don't understand that sentence :(
22:23 < Didleth> chodzi o to, ze:
22:24 < Didleth> lepiej wiecej serwerow niz jeden centralny;
ale jesli jakies indymedia maj%u0105 rpoblemy i moze wogole nie
miec swojego serwera, to lepeioj zeby byl na centralnym, niz zeby
ich wogole nie bylo
22:25 < s> understood :)
22:25 <@boud> :) (no hungarians today :P)
22:25 < Didleth> latin indymedia - their own serwer it's better
that central server, but central server is better that no server
:-)
22:26 <@boud> ok, that's clear :)
22:26 < Didleth> I know own is not a good word, but i'm not good
in english ;P
22:27 -!- Li_Eugene [...] has joined #europe
22:27 <@boud> on angdraug's general comments: 1) process and
2) money as the reasons for these "crises", i think that they
are parts of the problem, but i think it is better to think in
terms of system properties, something like a biological, evolving
system
22:28 <@boud> or rather like the brain (m\xF3zg)
22:29 < angdraug> boud: what do you mean?
22:29 < Li_Eugene> can somebody send me latest log (to understand
discussion)
22:31 < Didleth> how to do it?
22:32 <@boud> just a moment
22:32 < angdraug> done
22:34 <@boud> https://docs.indymedia.org/view/Local/ImcCEE061130Log
22:35 <@boud> each imc has something like its own methods and
the ways in which it follows the "principles of unity" and "membership
criteria" of indymedia
22:36 <@boud> this is something like each imc having a different
copy of the basic chromosomes (set of DNA) for creating "an imc"
22:36 <@boud> with different mutations
22:37 -!- euge_ [...] has joined #europe
22:37 <@boud> an individual organism generally cumulates errors
and becomes conservative and doesn't want to change or maybe cannot
change to adapt to problems
22:37 < euge_> sorry i take a problem with hdd...
22:37 < Didleth> like cat and dog have difrent dna?
22:38 <@boud> more like dog and wolf and fox have (slightly)
different dna
22:39 <@boud> or back to the brain analogy:
22:39 < Didleth> so...they cant change or don't wont change?
22:40 <@boud> the brain is very flexible - it's a network and
even when there's big damage to the brain, it can reorganise and
then do nearly the same functions
22:40 <@boud> maybe one or both
22:40 -!- euge_ is now known as Li_Eugene_
22:41 <@boud> or in terms of network thinking: when one node
(wierzchołek?) becomes too important, it can either be attacked
or simply by chance it breaks down, and then the network reorganises
in a more decentralised way
22:41 < Didleth> so its inpossible to just take them to the central
server?
22:41 <@boud> as long as there are many different ways of communicating
- synapses in many directions, then reorganising like this is
possible
22:42 < Didleth> you mean - we have to find another solution?
22:42 <@boud> well, two "central" servers (in fact, groups of
servers) are being removed from the system, so yes, it's impossible
to go back to them
22:43 <@boud> well, that's the best information i have - it's
not 100% certain
22:44 <@boud> i think (hope) we will (as a network) find the
necessary servers
22:45 < Didleth> I hope so too
22:45 <@boud> and since we regionally are organising (this chat)
i think we are contributing in general to decentralisation 
22:46 <@boud> it's getting late - shall we get to the other themes?
at least 2. and 3. 
22:46 <@boud> 2. imc torun organising 
22:46 <@boud> 3. what's going on in poland  - nazism in poland  
22:46 <@boud> 4. samizdat
22:47 < angdraug> in fact, it's getting so late that I'm afraid
I'll have to leave you soon. my family demands me :)
22:47 <@boud> :)
22:47 < Didleth> ; )
22:47 <@boud> well 2. quickly - 
22:48 < s> and i'm in a "blinking" regime last two hours, to
be fair :((((((
22:48 <@boud> i'm doing some tech stuff (samizdat) and i think
it will soon by technically ready for imc torun, including a live-cd
(knoppix-samizdat-torun) - part of crossing the digital divide
22:48 <@boud> and also getting local techies quickly into the
software
22:49 <@boud> and we'll start the political/documentation stuff
soon too
22:49 <@boud> and maybe IMC belarus would like to be our "supporter
IMC" for the new-imc group ?
22:49 -!- Li_Eugene [...] has quit [Read error: Connection reset
by peer]
22:50 <@boud> end
22:52 < s> i think imc-by should consider this idea... and i
personally see no objections against...
22:53 <@boud> in principle the idea is to make sure new collectives
are properly integrated into the network, and have people who
can support them etc
22:54 <@boud> you could also "force" or encourage us on some
of the more sensitive questions - e.g. is indymedia torun really
non-hierarchical? etc etc
22:54 <@boud> force is not a good word
22:56 <@boud> maybe now's a good time to discuss when we want
the next meeting - we could put "what's going on in poland - nazism
in poland" as a major item for the next meeting - for us to explain
to belarusian imc'ers what's going on here (everything west of
the border is not paradise!)
22:57 < s> :)))) there's no paradise nowhere till there are the
borders :)))))
22:57 < s> maybe no reason to wait a month?
22:57 <@boud> :)  last Thursday in December is 28 December -
between christmas and new year
22:57 < Didleth> and waht is borders?:D
22:58 <@boud> granicy
22:58 < Didleth> I will be propably in dezember not be
22:59 < s> Didleth: in the end of december or during  all the
december
22:59 < s> ?
23:00 < Didleth> in the end of december, but I belive boud or
someone will be and will can to say what whas talking about, prawda?
23:01 <@boud> Didleth: is thursday 21 december ok for you?
23:01 <@boud> angdraug?
23:01 <@boud> s?
23:01 < angdraug> ok
23:01 <@boud> Li_Eugene_ ?
23:01 < Li_Eugene_> i think better make shorter and frequent
discussions (one of two weeks )
23:01 < Didleth> I don't konw yet
23:02 < Didleth> but I belive you can doing meeting without me
; )
23:02 <@boud> well, in toruń we have face-to-face meetings every
week (every monday)
23:02 < s> hold
23:02 <@boud> so to have two meetings every week would be too
much - and already i do not go every week to the face-to-face
meetings
23:02 < s> i'll agree with 21 december as a compromise...
23:03 < s> because if we will make chat at 14, than there will
be big gap due to Xmas and new year
23:03 < s> on the other side
23:03 < s> i'd like to propose
23:03 < s> to think out and discuss (maybe in emails, IM, etc)
23:04 < s> additional ways of communication, more public...
23:04 < s> what i mean
23:04 <@boud> additional means: are you happy with the imc-europe
mailing list?
23:04 < s> CEE chats are looking like "something for IMC freaks"
23:04 < s> maybe mailing list.
23:05 <@boud> it's not used for much, so i don't think there's
a problem having "CEE" discussion there
23:05 <@boud> if it becomes too much, then we can choose another
mailing list
23:05 < s> but i'm thinking wider... it's just dreaming... about
some ways of involving 'simple people' in such kinds of communiccation
23:05 <@boud> maybe imc-pl-torun ?
23:05 <@boud> s wrote: ' CEE chats are looking like "something
for IMC freaks" '
23:06 < s> from a point of vision of 'trivial read-only visitors'
:)
23:06 <@boud> i think the main idea was for people involved in
indymedia organising to communicate, get to know one another
23:06 < s> but some things like 'nazism in poland' or some belarus
issues... could be interesting for all
23:07 <@boud> ah, i see your point
23:07 <@boud> then that's a different type of meeting
23:07 < s> yes :) but we should think out how to found out some
kinds of such meetings in future
23:08 < s> IMHO of course
23:09 < s> maybe it should not be a chat.... maybe collective
preparation of some articles about poland issues for belarusian
public and vice versa
23:09 <@boud> sure - but in that case we should probably advertise
it also on the imc poland front page - we would get many "ordinary
visitors" - including many nazis (probably)
23:09 <@boud> i meant for a chat
23:09 < s> so this is just a direction of thinking i don't want
to say we need a decision right now :)
23:11 < s> sometimes i produce too much 'fast-n-dirty' ideas...
much more that i can implement... so forget about what i said
for today :)
23:11 < Li_Eugene_> i want to propose to discuss on how to make
imc not only news or forums portal but add some like study and
analysis of social events?????
23:11 < Li_Eugene_> next time
23:11 < s> good idea
23:12 <@boud> in pl indymedia we call that "publicystyka"
23:12 <@boud> some is total rubbish, some is very interesting
(depending on your opinions/ideology/etc.)
23:13 < Li_Eugene_> i think only place to store articles is not
enougth (if i understand good)
23:13 < Li_Eugene_> it will be good to add some educational organising
work
23:14 < Li_Eugene_> to make possible to not alone analyse some 
23:15 < Li_Eugene_> example: organising to just take the point
through discussion
23:16 <@boud> IMHO the wiki feature (article open for editing
by all) on samizdat allows a lot of structured analysis by several
people working together
23:16 < Didleth> I will be going right now
23:16 < Didleth> so bye
23:17 <@boud> dobranoc :)
23:17 < s> dobranoc!
23:17 < Didleth> dobranoc :-)
23:17 < Li_Eugene_> bye see you again (viva la libertad)
23:17 -!- Didleth [...] has quit [Quit: CGI:IRC]
23:18 <@boud> Li - i think maybe something along the idea of
what you're thinking would be for us to discuss on irc but at
the same time work on/look through twiki pages and/or samizdat
pages about methods of organising
23:19 <@boud> a lot of very good information has already been
written - so the question is just helping people know where to
find it and/or translating it
23:19 <@boud> hmmm
23:19 <@boud> actually, i think adding good diagrams (pictures)
could also help a lot
23:19  * angdraug awoken
23:20 < angdraug> good night everyone!
23:20 -!- angdraug [...] has left #europe [Leaving]
23:20 <@boud> well, i think it looks like Thur 21 December -
i guess the same time? 19:00 UTC+0 ?
23:21 < Li_Eugene_> i think that the main problem of store in
that the problems ussualy discussed not really planned to solve
23:21 < s> boud: agree
23:21 < Li_Eugene_> boud: agree
23:22 < s> Li_Eugene: to form you idea in another words, we need
more improved methodology in analysis? am i wrong?
23:22 <@boud> shall we continue to use  http://belarus.indymedia.org/7070
- edit the title/content - as the main organising page for choosing
themes for the next meeting? in addition to the imc-europe mailing
list?
23:23 < s> that's stick with 2 ends, because proper planning
of a discussions kills the charm of spontaneous from them...
23:23 < Li_Eugene_> may be yes - methodology of analysis by network
collective
23:24 <@boud> well, IMHO that's actually quite a fundamental
point - it's not just planning a discussion, but also meta-organising
in general
23:24 < s> boud: in theory, yes...but maybe it's better make
header a bit simpler :) not so heavy fulled with information...
23:24 <@boud> ah, you mean article 7070 :)
23:25 <@boud> well, you have a login, you're welcome to edit
it :)
23:26 < s> Li_Eugene: Latur tried to organize things in a way
of 'analytical group'...
23:26 <@boud> too much planning can discourage free discussion,
but too little planning can discourage serious people from participating
- because they want to get things done not just talk and talk
like derrida or foucault (postmodernists)
23:27 < s> when somebody is duty on searching for topics... and
other involved are on duty of producing analyzis on proposed topics...
that was Latur's way
23:27 < s> but his stalinisms, and participation in BSF wars
23:28 < s> are sometimes killing all my imagination when i want
to participate in proposed discussions :)
23:29 <@boud> well, i don't think "duty" really fits with indymedia
culture - people will do something when they see it needs to be
done and think they can be useful
23:29 < s> at the same time i'm very tolerant in my relation
to him as a human... :)))
23:29 < s> boud: agree... :)
23:29 <@boud> but making people - especially volunteers living
in a capitalist environment - that they have a duty to do X or
Y is likely to discourage them
23:30 <@boud> s/that/feel that/g
23:30 < s> boud: :)
23:31 < Li_Eugene_> yes
23:31  * s is a bit sleeeeeeeeeeeeeepy..... %-0
23:31 < s> i'm leaving you for today :)
23:31 < s> Dec 21 the same time, right?
23:31 <@boud> yep :)
23:32 <@boud> i'm about to update /7070
23:32 < s> boud: will you be reposting the log of conversation?
23:32 <@boud> yep
23:32 <@boud> i think angdraug has a copy too (always better
2 people who log than just 1)
23:32 < s> please, cut off my initial words around unsecure connection
and this row, ok?
23:33 <@boud> ummm....
23:33 <@boud> i already posted this (half the log) https://docs.indymedia.org/view/Local/ImcCEE061130Log
23:33 <@boud> is it ok like that?
23:34 <@boud> and i don't understand "this row" 
23:35 <@boud> control f   to find "unsecure connection"
23:35 < s> "this row" = phrase " please cut my words" itself
:)
23:36 <@boud> ah, ok
23:36 <@boud> so it will be a "slightly edited" log
23:36 < s> ;-)
23:37 < s> thank you :)
23:37 <@boud> anyone paranoid about censorship can ask other
people for their copies of the log
23:38 < s> on the other side -- maybe i'm a bit paranoid about
security :) let it all run on it's way...
23:38 < s> don't mind 
23:39 < s> so im leaving :) and i'm telling all of you: dobranoc!
:))
23:39 <@boud> dobranoc :)
23:40 -!- s [...] has quit
Topic revision: r3 - 05 Dec 2006, BouD
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