ImcPatrasIrc070921Log

irc log #newimc 21.09.2007

--- Log opened pią wrz 21 21:27:55 2007  UTC+2
21:27 -!- Irssi: Log file /mnt/usbhd2/irc/irc.newimc-%Y-%m-%d
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20:16 < Aramil> hi
20:17 < yons7th> hi
20:18 < Aramil> what about the meeting that was arranged?
20:19 < estebandido> it's the 30 sept
20:20 < Aramil> :P
20:20 < Aramil> change the topic then :P
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20:21 <@boud> Aramil, yons7th estebandido, lamdaN hi
20:22 <@boud> toya was the person who proposed the meeting
20:22 <@boud> not me
20:22 < lamdaN> hallo
20:22 < lamdaN> hello
20:22 <@boud> and almost nobody on the new-imc mailing list replied
that they would be here
20:23 -!- There is no such nick #newimc
20:23 <@boud> i was going to send an email to new-imc saying
i didn't have time, but i forgot
20:24 <@boud> i put up the topic to support toya's proposal...
20:27 <@boud> shall we at least do introductions? i'm curious
where you're from... i'm from imc torun
              (in poland), i was active in imc poland 2002-2007,
and i've been active in the new-imc
              group for much too long (about 2002-now)
20:27 <@boud> a famous revolutionary was born in torun - nicolaus
copernicus (but he left at the age
              of 5 years old)
20:30 < estebandido> i'm from venezuela  since 4 years my father
was venezuelan and i'm born and
                     grown in france,
20:32 < yons7th> my name is  Kostas and i'm from greece, grown
up in Patra
20:36 < lamdaN> well, my name is leonidas and i live in patra-greece.
20:37 -!- Topic for #newimc: informal meeting Fri 21 Sep 18:00
UTC+0
          http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/new-imc/2007-September/0909-51.html
20:37 -!- Topic set by boud [...] [Sun Sep  9 23:34:53 2007]
20:37 < Aramil> paris from patra 2
20:39 <@boud> so, do we want to talk through the 4 points on:
              http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/new-imc/2007-September/0909-51.html 
?
20:42 <@boud> i just looked at   https://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/NewImcRecentEurope#Greece 
to
              remember about imc patra
20:46 <@boud> AntoNymous and LeonN have prepared this page:
              http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Local/ImcPatras
20:47 <@boud> akop from imc piter in russia was trying to help
you through the new-imc organising
              process i think
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20:50 < Aramil> yes
20:50 < Aramil> but we havent heard from him for a long time
20:51 < estebandido> ok
20:51 < antonymous> Good evening all; sorry i m late, time zone
confusion
20:52 < antonymous> antonis from imc patras
20:52 <@boud> hi antonis
20:52 <@boud> you don't have to wait for your new-imc helper
20:53 <@boud> it's partly a problem of hierarchy/antihierarchy
20:54 <@boud> i've been active in new-imc for a long time, so
if i help you (like i am doing now ;),
              then that gives me more and more power
20:54 <@boud> so it's better if new people like akop from imc-piter
help you
20:54 <@boud> but then maybe nothing happens...
20:55 <@boud> it's the difficulty of how to really do things
non-hierarchically and effectively
20:55 < antonymous> yep thats also why we liked the idea of getting
help from him   but maybe its
                    time to move on independently from now on?
20:55 <@boud> https://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/NewImcHowTo
20:56 <@boud> you can edit either  https://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/NewImcRecentEurope
              (section on Patras) or  http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Local/ImcPatras 
to show how
              you're organising
20:57 < antonymous> we ve made some first steps here
20:57 < antonymous> http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Local/ImcPatras#IMC_Membership_Criteria
20:58 < antonymous> but not much feedback so far :(
20:58 <@boud> akop sent it to the new-imc list here: 24 August
              http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/new-imc/2007-August/0829-rx.html
20:59 <@boud> nobody reacted, so by passive consensus, it means
that there's no problem with that bit
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21:00 < antonymous> sorry was disconnected: so boud, what would
be the next step for us?
21:01 <@boud> i'm just wondering - i guess these answers are
from your group meeting face-to-face and
              working through these? or also from mailing list
discussions?
21:02 < antonymous> face to face mostly
21:03 <@boud> ok
21:03 < estebandido> sorry i have to give a french class right
now in the anarchist library, see you
                     later
21:03 < antonymous> and then some work on the wiki but face to
face mostly
21:03 <@boud> (a plus, estebandido)  btw (by the way), i edited
your page a bit...
21:03 <@boud> your wiki page
21:04 < estebandido> fine
21:04 <@boud> there was an error in the syntax of the link at
the top - it's
              [[http://some.thing][some nice words]]   to be
correct
21:04 < antonymous> (boud and all, excuse my slow and short responses;
i m struggling on a belgian
                    keyboard)
21:04 <@boud> i meant i edited the imc patras wiki page :)
21:04 <@boud> :P
21:04 <@boud> are you linux?
21:04 <@boud> on linux?
21:05 < antonymous> nope
21:05 < Aramil> ow french keyboards...
21:05 < antonymous> qn internet cafe
21:05 <@boud> azerty ;)
21:05 < antonymous> hehe
21:05 <@boud> well, just remember:
21:06 <@boud> if you are on gnu/linux in X windows (like kde,
gnome, ...), you can type in a
              terminal:    setxkbmap en
21:06 <@boud> or setxkbmap gr  (if there's a greek keyboard???)
21:06 <@boud> if you type without looking at the keyboard, then
that's useful
21:07 <@boud> setxkbmap en   will give you a standard "qwerty"
keyboard
21:07 <@boud> anyway, let's look at  https://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/NewImcHowTo
21:07 < antonymous> if only windows xp was that smart
21:07 < antonymous> yes lets have a look
21:09 < antonymous>  guess we are at step 7?
21:09 <@boud> step 1 it looks like you've done because you gave
some quite honest answers in
              http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/new-imc/2007-July/0710-kn.html
21:09 <@boud> step 2 i guess yes :)
21:09 <@boud> step 3 yes
21:10 <@boud> step 4 yes
21:10 <@boud> (fast)
21:10 <@boud> step 5 ?
21:10 <@boud> that's your judgment :)
21:10 < antonymous> we re working on it :)
21:11 <@boud> (6a) do you have a mission statement?  (to me these
sounds like the Blues Brothers
              movie, "We're on a mission from Gooooooooooooood!")
21:11 < Aramil> :P
21:12 < antonymous> it might be that the blues brothers are a
step ahead of us at this stage
21:12 < lamdaN> no god, thanks.
21:12 <@boud> IMC Blues Brothers
21:13 <@boud> but seriously, i think it means saying what your
aims are, what's the point of creating
              your imc ?
21:13 < antonymous> erm have we? we havent got our VERY own one;
but we were going to use imc athens
                    one as it did work for us in most parts.....
but
21:14 < antonymous> we also wanted to add why we need one specifically
in patras
21:14 <@boud> ok, so in principle you should write that up for
step (6a) - of course, it's as much
              for local people as for the network
21:15 <@boud> but it would be nice to have a translation in a
language like english or spanish
21:15 < antonymous> cool yes; its something we wanted to do for
our launch anyway
21:15 < antonymous> yes of course; english and possibly spanish
too
21:16 <@boud> 6b editorial policy - you've written that up
21:17 < antonymous> yup
21:19 <@boud> just a suggestion on that - i don't know what software
you're using, but you might want
              to consider having a wiki option, in which case
at some point you (collective you) will
              need to write in your editorial policy in what
ways to use that
21:20 <@boud> belarus/ukraine/torun use samizdat - the person
who publishes can choose wiki (open for
              editing by all people with logins) at the time
of publishing
21:21 <@boud> or if an article is controversial, an editorial
(moderator) intervention can be to
              change the article's status to wiki instead of
hiding it
21:21 <@boud> that way it's much more subtle than just yes/no
for hiding
21:21 < antonymous> aha thats interesting actually, the editorial
policy we have in mind is something
                    we should prob talk about
21:22 <@boud> ummm didn't you already talk about it?
21:22 < antonymous> no we have
21:22 <@boud> ok
21:22 < antonymous> i mean with you :)
21:22 <@boud> ah, telling me about it is not very important
21:23 <@boud> telling other Patras people is most important
21:23 <@boud> telling the indymedia network is second in importance
21:23 <@boud> and telling one individual (me) is low in importance
21:23 < antonymous> well thats pretty much what happened
21:23 < antonymous> heres the story
21:24 < antonymous> bare with me and my french kboard
21:24 <@boud> :)
21:24 < antonymous> basically at the first imc patras meeting
we had an excellent attendance; 30/35
                    people; however
21:25 <@boud> [wow!]
21:25 < antonymous> concers were raised about open publishing
as it works in athens and the risks it
                    can bring to the activist community of a
small city like patras; i.e.
21:26 < antonymous> if someones name gets published on the website
they are fucked : the media and
                    cops will know in no time. and then
21:26 < antonymous> that person will be at risk and so will the
credibility of the website : that?s
                    why we had a pre moderating model in mind
21:27 < antonymous> but we are not sure whether this is fully
compatible to the global netzorks open
                    publishing model
21:27 < antonymous> (ends)
21:27 < antonymous> other patras people add whatever i miht forget
please :)
21:28 < Aramil> to explain a bit better
21:28 < Aramil> we had in mind
21:28 < Aramil> every non-read by n amin article
21:28 < Aramil> admin*
21:28 < Aramil> will be put in an area in the site 
21:28 < Aramil> completely accessible by visitors via a link
21:29 < Aramil> which will be in the front page
21:29 < Aramil> once it meets our editorial policy
21:29 < Aramil> and becomes read
21:29 < Aramil> it wil be transfered in the newswire column of
the frontpage
21:32 <@boud> ok, there's theory and practice
21:32 <@boud> antonymous said: " whether this is fully compatible
to the global netzorks open publishing model"
21:33 <@boud> in fact, we don't have any "formal" consensus on
the definition of open publishing
21:33 <@boud> around the time i joined the network, one of the
key people in indymedia, maffew from australia, was suggesting
the idea of wikis (he didn't know about the wikipedia)
21:34 <@boud> but it's true that most people say that post-publication
moderation is rather strong requirement
21:34 <@boud> but not all imcs follow this
21:34 <@boud> e.g. quebec
21:35 <@boud> and many of the french sites have the non-checked
articles "one click away" from the front page
21:36 < antonymous> vive le french :)
21:36 <@boud> it's really up to you to judge what you feel will
be accepted by the network 
21:36 <@boud> but i think the minimum is that you should state
your policy clearly - as you two have just said above
21:37 <@boud> i know that in greece you have a lot more, let's
say, "physical" direct action than, say in poland
21:37 <@boud> so if someone's name gets posted, it could be a
lot worse than the situation here
21:38 < antonymous> true, that d have to be explained, good point
21:38 <@boud> just add it to your twiki page
21:39 < antonymous> ok
21:39 <@boud> petros asked us to log this, but i forgot and i
only started logging with:
21:39 <@boud> 21:28 < Aramil> to explain a bit better
21:39 <@boud> i can probably grab the rest from my terminal
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21:41 <@boud> got it :)
21:41 < Lagota> Hola hay algun/a latino/a o que hable espańol 
21:42 < antonymous> all right so, to sum up, we need to work
on our mission statement and to edit our editorial policy : what
comes after that? 
21:42 <@boud> 7a and 7b
21:43 <@boud> just a moment:
21:43 <@boud> in this sentence: "Due to the high volume of spam/personal
attacks etc posted on the IMC Athens website, ..."
21:44 <@boud> i think you should put something like: "...open
publishing model on the IMC Patras website"
21:44 <@boud> otherwise someone reading it not very carefully
might think you just copied/pasted from the imc athens editorial
policy
21:44 <@boud> it would be clearer in meaning
21:45 < antonymous> yes, true
21:45 < antonymous> though thats not what we meqn but yes, well
change it
21:46 <@boud> ok
21:46 <@boud> points h. and i. 
21:47 < antonymous> yes
21:47 < antonymous> well
21:48 < antonymous> the only list we re not on is imc communicqtion
21:48 < antonymous> we can get on it asap
21:49 < antonymous> well have more thqn one person on each; im
already on wwwfeatures; process and newimc
21:49 <@boud> the difference between imc-communication and imc-process
is that on imc-communication, it can be individuals (not necessarily
representing their imc, but trying to do inter-imc communication),
but on imc-process, it's supposed to be like a spokes-wheel model,
where the person does communication between the local group and
the whole network
21:49 <@boud> ok
21:50 <@boud> as you've probably seen, in practice almost nothing
gets discussed on imc-process
21:50 < antonymous> yes true :)
21:51 <@boud> i know that in my local town, the idea of organising
collectively is a bit too abstract for many people (and it's linked
with the difficulty of changing from a "national" imc to a local
imc)
21:51 <@boud> and writing in at least two languages, preferably
at least en + es requires some work
21:52 <@boud> at least this stops any one group or individual
from trying to speak on behalf of the whole network
21:52 <@boud> on -communication, in principle poly-language is
also recommended
21:53 < antonymous> is there more discussion going on there?
21:53 <@boud> on -communication? 
21:53 <@boud> i haven't noticed much lately
21:53 < antonymous> ok
21:53 <@boud> there was a discussion about whether or not imc's
should have paid employees (as in IMC Urbana-Champaign in the
USA)
21:54 <@boud> and that got branched off to a discussion list
21:54 <@boud> anyway...
21:55 <@boud> i think apart from updating your editorial policy
to include what you told me, and writing your mission from god,
whoops, your mission statement, you should give a point by point
answer to the principles of unity
21:55 <@boud> https://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/PrinciplesOfUnity
21:56 <@boud> you don't necessarily have to agree to all of them
21:56 <@boud> we're an anti-authoritarian network
21:56 <@boud> but you are requested to say what your attitude
is to them
21:56 <@boud> again, it's as much for your own group as for the
network
21:56 < antonymous> ok excellent
21:57 <@boud> make a copy of the document, discuss your answers
e.g. in a face to face meeting and then write them there
21:57 < antonymous> cool cool, theres another meeting coming
up, plenty to discuss there...
21:57 <@boud> in principle, another imc might decide to veto
your application if you say "No, fuck off" to one of the questions
21:57 <@boud> but that's not my decision
21:58 <@boud> and in practice, they would probably first ask
for clarification and try to understand the problem
21:59 <@boud> and because we haven't changed the deadline on
imc-process to a more reasonable deadline (e.g. two weeks or one
month), local imc's only have 1 week to decide if they want to
block or at least suspend the proposal while they express a concern
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21:59 <@boud> my local imc is unlikely to propose this change
(from 1 week to 4 weeks), and i shouldn't propose it just from
my individual point of view
22:00 < ant> sorry pc fucked up; boud i only saw up to the point
u said in principle another imc could block the application
22:00 <@boud> ok, i'll repaste it here:
22:00 < ant> thnx
22:00 -!- Irssi: Pasting 13 lines to #newimc. Press Ctrl-K if
you wish to do this or Ctrl-C to cancel.
22:00 <@boud> 21:57 <@boud> in principle, another imc might decide
to veto your application if you say "No, fuck
22:00 <@boud>               off" to one of the questions
22:00 <@boud> 21:57 <@boud> but that's not my decision
22:00 <@boud> 21:58 <@boud> and in practice, they would probably
first ask for clarification and try to understand
22:00 <@boud>               the problem
22:00 <@boud> 21:59 <@boud> and because we haven't changed the
deadline on imc-process to a more reasonable
22:00 <@boud>               deadline (e.g. two weeks or one month),
local imc's only have 1 week to decide if they
22:00 <@boud>               want to block or at least suspend
the proposal while they express a concern
22:00 <@boud> 21:59 -!- ant [...] has joined #newimc
22:00 <@boud> 21:59 <@boud> my local imc is unlikely to propose
this change (from 1 week to 4 weeks), and i
22:00 <@boud>               shouldn't propose it just from my
individual point of view
22:00 <@boud> 22:00 < ant> sorry pc fucked up; boud i only saw
up to the point u said in principle another imc
22:00 <@boud>              could block the application
22:01 < ant> ok thanks
22:02 <@boud> after imc patras is accepted, you might want to
propose a longer delay on imc-process, or first discuss it on
new-imc, and if people like the idea and you think people around
the network generally think it's reasonable, and if imc patras
consenses to propose it to the network, then you could do that
22:03 < ant> thats a good idea, one week is short, given that
most imcs have their meetings less regurlarly than that
22:03 <@boud> so maybe put that on your agenda after you're accepted
:)
22:04 < ant> :)
22:04 <@boud> here i'm acting as an individual, not a collective
22:05 <@boud> anyway...
22:05 < ant> yup? thats cool, its been really helpful
22:05 < ant> so basically we go away and work on all that we
talked about tonite. Is the meeting that was gonna happen tonight
be rescheduled?
22:06 <@boud> with the 4 documents 6a 6b 7a 7b i think you'd
be ready for proposing internally to new-imc
22:06 <@boud> i mean, after those 4 things are ready
22:07 <@boud> in principle, you should hassle akop from imc-piter
and ask him to do it for you :)
22:07 <@boud> to make things a bit less dependent on me
22:07 < ant> hehe
22:07 < ant> that can be arranged
22:07 <@boud> boud, the Senior Minister of New-Imc
22:07 <@boud> 4 billion euro budget
22:07 < ant> at your orders 
22:08 <@boud> as for the meeting, i imagine that toya was probably
a bit disappointed that nobody seemed interested
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22:11 < ant> ok so i things we have no more questions, dear minister
;)
22:12 <@boud> :)
22:13 <@boud> so no demo outside the Ministry's offices in protest?
22:13 < ant> no, for now not!
22:14 <@boud> :)
22:18 < ant> allright so we re off and will be watching the list
for a possible new meeting right?
22:19 <@boud> if you want a meeting, feel free to propose it
22:19 <@boud> if the main aim is to discuss imc patras organising
process, then you should say that that's the topic
22:20 <@boud> it's actually not a bad idea that new groups getting
organised propose an irc meeting with people interested/willing
to be supportive
22:20 <@boud> it can be more friendly than just email
22:20 < ant> allright, might do so once weve made some progress
with our texts
22:20 < ant> cool will do so then