<micah> mark, any chance you can log and post the log to the wiki afterwards?
<micah> or bunny, earthman, jb, jebba, mtoups, patrick, ski, zapata, zcat?
<mark> hola
? micah would like to get started
<mark> i can
<micah> great, thanks mark
? mark dutifully reads wiki page
??? Mode change #meeting[+o mark] by Zapata
<micah> can we get a show of hands of who is actually here?
??? Mode change #meeting[+o pietro] by Zapata
??? micah has changed the topic on #meeting to: me raises his hand
<micah> dang
? Zapata is here, but also working on some other stuff
??? micah has changed the topic on #meeting to: http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Sysadmin/BerkmanMeeting
? jebba waves
<micah> pietro: still here?
<earthman> Tue Feb 10 20:00:06 UTC 2004
<pietro> micah: yep
<micah> looks like we've got me, jebba, earthman, pietro, mark, and part of
        zapata
<pietro> who volunteers to faciitate?
<earthman> i'm relatively uninvolved, i can if no one else wants to
<jb> hola
<pietro> earthman: be my guest :)
? micah cheers for earthman
<pietro> ok, earthman will facilitate
<pietro> lets do intros?
<micah> are intros needed?
<micah> we all know each other here no?
<earthman> had eveyone read / added to http://docs.indymedia.
           org/view/Sysadmin/BerkmanMeeting that has a need?
<Zapata> hey mark, not sure if I know you
<jb> yep, except bunny and zcat for me.
<ski> probably, but my memory could use a refresher :-)
<jb> let's do intro.
<mark> i'm mark from sf.  btw if i'm silent it's cuz i have to pretend to be
       working ;)
? ski imc homeless, do global tech work
? Zapata is a dutch mircoder...
? jb is a bsd freak.
? Zapata wonders wether  imc homeless is a new topic based imc ;-)
<jebba> i'll intro zcat: he's from UK, learning linux. does lots of live radio
        (including FM shows).
? micah is a US system admin
? earthman is from ny.us presently, misc techydweeb
<pietro> im pietro from brasil
? jb does sysad a bit from barcelona.
? jebba admin, primarily of ahimsas
<ski> patrick, bunny, mtoups?
<micah> mark works with ecr radio, so is connected with the machine
<mark> (no login yet ;)
<micah> I think they are idle, I know lee was going to show up too who also
        works with stuff having to do with berkman
<ski> hmm, arc said he would be here yesterday... but i know he has to be
      somewhere else at 4, so maybe he's not gracing us with his presence?
<earthman> btw /me will need a replacement if the meeting decides it needs to
           go past 2 hours
<micah> dunno, he emailed saying he was going to be here too
??? ianb_[~ianb@kansas.rd.imagescape.com] joined channel #meeting
<micah> lets keep the meeting from going over 2 hours
<ski> i guess we're still early. traditionally doesn't it take 15 minutes for
      the meeting to start? :-)
<micah> ianb_: quick intro?
<earthman> ski: traditionally i don't moderate it either :)
<micah> does everyone know the recent history of berkman?
<pietro> acording to the wiki the box is used only for streamign right?
<ianb_> oh, hi, I'm from Chicago, I don't know what's going on with Berkman,
        I'll probably just listen
<mark> i believe it hosts radio.indymedia.org ?
<micah> should we give a little background as to why this meeting was called?
??? Mode change #meeting[+o ianb_] by earthman
<ski> micah - yeah that's a good idewa
<pietro> micah: yep :)
<earthman> who called it, are they here?  speak up :)
? jb raises
<micah> ok, quick summary... I was in amsterdam recently and was contacted by
        some people because berkman was down, it is in amsterdam hosted at
        calyx
? ski will be in and out, reinstalling os on next machine over
<micah> it came back up, and then jb did some work to get it upgraded to 4.9
        becaue of security things
<micah> then he tried to get SMP working, it has two CPUs and has never been
        able to use the other
<micah> but a reboot caused it to crash again (the first time it was down, it
        was down for about 72 hours)
<micah> so I went into calyx late in the evening and figured out the SMP
        problem (bios), and found a dead disk in the array, got that replaced,
        and did some other maintenance on the box
??? Sodor|afk[~johnc@host-69-48-73-242.roc.choiceone.net] joined channel
    #meeting
<micah> there was about 3gigs of cron mail in root's box and huge logs sitting
        around everywhere
??? Sodor|afk has left #meeting.
<micah>  /var was filled up and other things too, obviously the box was in a
         sad state and had been able to stay up until it got too messy
<micah> sooo... jb?
<earthman> jb, go
<jb> no, micah intro was fine :p
<jb> anyway
<jb> i called for the meeting cuz who used the box was pretty unclear
<jb> same for who administered it, etc.
<micah> well it should be said that there is lack of sysadmin' of the box, and
        now we need to identify what the box is used for, what needs to be
        fixed on it, what needs to be cleared up and who should have access
        etc.
<micah> ah, sorry jb, I thought you weren't saying more :)
? micah closes mouth
<jb> take the micro, i type slowly.
<micah> well, I am done I think, unless you want to say more about the
        problems on the machine?
? mark raises hand
? earthman subtly reminds of "</end>" (anyone need a re-run of those
  irc-meeting-ish things?)
<micah> </end>
<earthman> mark?
<mark> from what i understand old accounts have been locked, so could we say
       who has access now?
? ski anally notes that </end> would be the end of an end tag, <end> or
  </statement> would be more appropriate
? jb raises
<earthman> jb
? micah plugs ski's anal
<jb> mark: afaik the only account that has been locked is arc' one.
<jb> we should talk about this later, btw.
<jb> if other have been locked, this is prolly a bug.
<jb> <end/>
<earthman> okay, the first item on the twiki is current configuration
<earthman> anyone have anything that needs adding or discussion on that?
? micah raises
<earthman> fort anyone needing the url, ,/topic  or http://docs.indymedia.
           org/view/Sysadmin/BerkmanMeeting
<earthman> micah: go
<micah> I think we should talk about what the box is used for, who should have
        access etc. first.
<micah> Once we know that we can better talk about configuration issues
<micah> <end>
? Zapata raises
<earthman> Zapata: go
<Zapata> perhaps the history of the box is of use here...
<Zapata> the box comes from imc switzerland
<Zapata> bandwidth was donated by calyx at some point
<Zapata> so wald from imc ch brought the box to the bandwidth, especially for
         doing streaming stuff for the iraqi war that was about to start back
         then
<Zapata> I've talked a bit with wald, also concerning arc's claim that the box
         was of the imc audio group...
<Zapata> I think wald's opinion was that the iraqi war usage of the box was
         temporary, and that at some point it should be decided how and what
         the box should be used for...
? micah raises hand
<Zapata> I'm pretty sure he and imc ch can live with whatever comes out of a
         collective session like this
<Zapata> <end>
<earthman> micah: go
<micah> I'd like to point to http://docs.indymedia.
        org/view/Sysadmin/BerkmanInfo as a page that has some more history
? jb raises
<micah> part of it is arc's construction of what he thought the box should be
        used for, although it isn't totally off-base
<micah> it says there "A server has been donated and being installed at Calyx.
        It's future purpose still needs to be discussed, however, it will
        serve as a icecast stream server and video dropbox for a potential
        massive worldwide anti-war movement if the US/UK go to war with Iraq.
<micah> "
? Zapata raises quickly
? Zapata raises quickly in response to micah
<micah> there are specs there, and a couple pictures I put up
<micah> <end>
<earthman> jb: hold okay?  Zapata go
<jb> k
<Zapata> my remark about wald's notion of temporariness of the iraqi war thing
         was in direct response to a query by me to wald
<Zapata> after a conversation I had with arc
<Zapata> so basically wald says what micah pointed to as far as I know...
<Zapata> <end>
<earthman> jb: go
<jb> i was to recall first berkman meeting (last year), were all this was
     stated.  <end<
? mark raises
? micah raises
<earthman> mark
<mark> i can't speak for imc-audio of course but i think there is a fair
       amount of consensus that people want to continue to use it for
       streaming radio (among other things)
? Zapata raises
<mark> <end />
<earthman> micah: go
? jebba proposes never mentioning arc throughout the rest of the meeting.
  don't let him disrupt while he's gone too! ;) <thread immediately closes>
<micah> yeah, what I was going to say was somewhat along what marc was saying,
        its an ideal box to do streaming of sorts, good bandwidth and good
        space, and I dont think anyone is wanting to take that away, I think
        we are jsut needing to define it better.
<micah> Also, it would be good to place it in reference to what we have with
        paranode
<micah> <end>
? jb raises
<earthman> Zapata: go
<Zapata> I wanted to say what micah just said ;-)
<Zapata> <end>
<earthman> jb
<jb> mark: i find it ok for imc-audio to use the box, but i think one box
     concentrati
<jb> ng all imc-radio will fry quickly.
<jb> one single box doesnt have ressources for all this, i guess.
<jb> let's use this box for audio, but also let's find others.
<jb> (i know i say air)
? mark raises
<jb> end>
<earthman> mark
<mark> well can we agree that it can continue to host radio.indymedia.org site
       and stream mirrors? <end>
? jb applauses.
? pietro raises
<earthman> pietro: go
<pietro> i think we agree we berkman can continue to do streamings and host
         radio.indy
<pietro> but we need to discuss a "limit" of the number of streams the box can
         handle
? micah raises
??? keysjrw[~jworthing@phantom.water.com] joined channel #meeting
<pietro> and also a process to give acess to the resources
<pietro> <end>
<earthman> micah: go
<micah> if I recall, the box is being used for radio.indymedia, liveradio,
        icecast mirrors and some democracy now streaming. Can anyone think of
        anything else?
? jb raises
<jb> i think people from a-radio (laplana indy) were interested in using it
     also.
<earthman> jb: go (unless micah has more?)
<jb> oops.
<micah> <end> sorry
<jb> <end> also
? patrick is at work, lurks
<earthman> anyone else know of intent about the box?
? mark raises
<earthman> mark: go
<mark> i think that's all it's used for,
<mark> we should maybe set a bandwidth limit for streaming?
<mark> <end />
<earthman> suggestions/proposals on bw limits anyone?
? jb raises
<earthman> jb: go
? ski raises
<jb> let's calyx limit bandwidth for us
<jb> as long as this is not an issue..
<jb> </end>
? micah twinkles towards jb
??? stefani[irc@localhost] joined channel #meeting
<earthman> okay, ,it looks as though the next item is what sofware needs to be
           set up ... any discussion on this, or should we move along?
? jb raises
<earthman> jb
? mark raises
<jb> well, there are indications one the wiki about shoutcast.
? ski coughs loudly, but his comment is obsolete anyway :P
? micah raises hand
<jb> i'm clueless about it
<jb> "Specific arguments for and against shoutcast are well known and will not
     be reiterated here by me."
<jb> this doesnt help. please clarifications...
<jb> </end>
<earthman> i don't know either, but will give the mike to mark now
<mark> we need to upgrade radio.indymedia.org from ancient active code
<mark> so that is a consideration here.  <end />
<earthman> the cms too was old i gather
<earthman> micah: go
? jb says oh shit.
<micah> Before we move on... I would like to propose that the intent of the
        berkman machine be primarily for audio purposes, can we ask if the
        imc-audio team could come up with a more solid conception of what the
        box will be used for? I just want to avoid some kind of creeping of
        things with the machine, soon it is a big mess if we don't define.
? pietro agrees with micah
<micah> <end>
? mark raises hand
<earthman> okay, so far we have a motion to continue radio.indy streaming ...
           any disagreement on that, or is that consensed?
<earthman> mark: go
? micah raises hand
<mark> i don't know who else here is on the audio list but i can inquire if
       anyone is interested in the "global coordinated stream" idea and maybe
       we can put together something more solid
? jb raises
<mark> <end>
<earthman> jb: go
? micah points to his hand first :)
<earthman> oops, sorry, micah go
<earthman> jb: apologies (type but don't hit enter, heh)
<micah> I think the proposal is more that the box continue to do what it has
        been doing, democracy now streaming, radio.indy, live radio, icecast
        relaying. And I was just modifying it some to ask that imc-audio come
        up with more defined criteria for the purpose instead of just creeping
        onto the box.
<micah> <end>
<earthman> jb: go now
<jb> i note that i cant find the security fixes for Active (uploaded php, etc)
     . :(
<jb> <end>
? pietro gotta go now :(  i'll read the logs
<earthman> comments on micah's amended proposal anyone?
? mark raises hand
<earthman> thanks for participating pietro
<earthman> mark: go
? micah waves bye to pietro
<mark> I'm not sure if berkman is used for transcoding.  probably a bad idea
       since it uses so much cpu.
<mark> so we should find that out
<mark> <end>
? micah raises hand
? mtoups raises
? earthman notes that security is probably a given concern, so suggests the
  active/upgades/migration/whatever be up after this
<earthman> micah: go
??? Signoff: pietro[Quit: Leaving]
<micah> can that be a part of the imc-audio description of what berkman will
        be used for: identify what is there now, what it will be used for. ? I
        am not asking that so we can then "approve" its usage, I simply think
        it important to define the purpose or the machine will get insane fast.
<micah> also, now that there are two CPUs, transcoding could be possible (if
        it wasn't done before)
<micah> <end>
<earthman> mtoups: go
<mtoups> i just wanted to point out that ogg -> mp3 transcoding was set up and
         done somewhat
<micah> mp3 - > ogg you mean?
<mtoups> nope
<mtoups> and apologies for coming in late, doing other stuff...
<mtoups> but i think with the cpu and with other tweaks, it is doable
<mtoups> <done>
? ski raises
<earthman> mtoups: toss an intro in before your <end> please?
<earthman> er, now then? :)
? mark raises
<earthman> then ski, then mark
<mtoups> oh ok
<ski> mtoups is matt from pittsburgh imc, apparently preoccupied
<mtoups> i'm matt t. from pittsburgh , er right thanks ski.  and i've been
         helping admin berkman on and off (mostly off) for a while.
<mark> i will send an email to imc-audio to inventory what people/imcs areant
       to define the purpose or the machine will get insane fast. being used
       for and get proposals on future use.  (btw are any transcoding
       processes running now?)
<mark> <micah> also, now that there are two CPUs, transcoding could be
       possible (if
<mark>         it wasn't done before)
<mark> <micah> <end>
<mark> <earthman> mtoups: go
<mark> <mtoups> i just wanted to point out that ogg -> mp3 transcoding was set
       up and
<mark>          done somewhat
<mark> <micah> mp3 - > ogg you mean?
<mark> <mtoups> nope
<mtoups> but ready to be on more, go ahead ski <done>
<earthman> ski: go
<ski> ack
<mark> that was weird, sorry <end>
<ski> anyway, i think a logical and smart usage for this box might have
      something to do with ivdn (indymedia video something something)
<ski> just a thought... trying to get one of those folks in this channel now.
      <end>
<earthman> (...distribution network?)
<ski> earthman - sounds about right.
<earthman> mark: go
<mark> anyways i will send an email to imc-audio and report back (i guess) to
       imc-sysadmin? <end>
??? Xeto[irc@localhost] joined channel #meeting
<Xeto> hi all
<earthman> is the change from audio to audio+video something we need to
           discuss?
<Xeto> sorry about delay
? micah raises hand
<earthman> hi Xeto, a brief intro for the log please?
<earthman> then micah (type-ahead, heh)
<Xeto> i'am paco from cmi la plana (spain estate)
<earthman> Xeto: end with "<end>" when done please, if you're not familiar
           with meetings here ("/me raises" to be called on)
<Xeto> ok <end>
??? Mode change #meeting[+o Xeto] by earthman
<micah> I guess I would like it clear what the difference between berkman and
        paranode are/will be, as I am sort of confused by it. Paranode does
        video/audio streaming now. I think it is fine to do some video stuff
        on berkman, especially this ivdn project. But it would be nice to
        clarify the difference between the two.
<earthman> micah: go
<micah> <end>
<earthman> who can address the paranode issue?
? micah raises hand
? ski twinkles confusedly at micah
<jb> heh
<earthman> micah: go
? jb points out that ibiblio is there also for video.
<micah> well, I think I might know what the difference is, but I am not so
        sure, so I can take a stab and people can add/sub
<earthman> micah: good idea
<micah> paranode is primarily for uploaded video/audio rich media stuff to the
        different IMC sites. It is limited in what we can do on it because we
        don't have control of it.
??? lee[~lee@66.246.92.228] joined channel #meeting
? earthman raises with a question on ibiblio
<micah> So we would not be able to host the radio page on it, and it is a
        little harder to get icecast setup streams setup there (although not
        impossible)
<lee> sorry I'm late, Covad DSL dude is fixing the line.
? ski raises in response to micah
<micah> I guess it would also not be a plce where ivdn happens either. But it
        is available for richmedia streaming, which berkman is oto
<micah> <end>
<earthman> lee: a brief intro, ending with "<end> please for the log?
<micah> ...which berkman is too
<micah> err, <unend>
??? occam[irc@localhost] joined channel #meeting
<micah> I just dont know why someone would use berkman over paranode over
        ibiblio
<micah> <end>
<occam> sorry, i'm late
? micah pokes occam in the eye
? mark raises
<occam> aua
??? ski has left #meeting.
??? ski[irc@localhost] joined channel #meeting
<lee> i work at Democracy Now and have done tech work with nyc as well as
      worked with Arc on Icecast issues on Berkman. I have root on the box.
<lee> <end>
<earthman> occam: a brief intro, ending with "<end>" please for the log? then
           occam, the same, then ski
<earthman> s/occam, the same, //
? occam imc germany, tech, sf-active coder, ivdn, and many many more stuff
  <end>
<ski> since berkman is the only one of these big bandwidth sites that is
      totally under our control, i think our usage should reflect that...
<ski> so basically i think we should use berkman as kind of a staging point...
      archive.org, ibiblio, paranode, these work more in a long-term time scale
<ski> this is just a shot at clarification like micahs <end>
? ianb_ raises
<earthman> mark: go
? occam raises for p2p on berkman
<mark> for streaming it's important to control the box.  a box you don't
       control is best as a stream mirror.  radio.indy site could offload rich
       media to paranode et al. <end />
<earthman> then ianb_
? lee raises
<ianb_> I'm specifically interested in live streaming,
<ianb_> which I don't think would be easy to set up on paranode. <end>
<earthman> lee: go
<earthman> lee: wait, occam first, sorry
<lee> has anyone salvaged and statictics on berkman' bandwidth vs actual
      usage? <end>
<earthman> occam: apologies. your turn now
<occam> lee: yeah, i just made a stat for icecast via webalizer last days
<occam> http://liveradio.indymedia.org/stats/event/
? micah raises
<occam> http://liveradio.indymedia.org/stats/main/
<occam> http://liveradio.indymedia.org/stats/relay
<occam> ok, for the p2p stuff
? jebba raises
<occam> we setup this video network wich will also use p2p networks for
        downloading..
? mtoups raises
<occam> and there i had the ideo to setup a p2p.indy domain with a bit torrent
        service
<earthman> micah: you'll be next, then jebba, then mtoups
<occam> and cause of the badnwith  i would like to use that berkman for that..
<occam> thats not only for video, its for all content wich is larger then
        stuff you can post on a local imc (i.e. 20 MB)
<occam> (note: ivdn useses a open publishing ftp server, wich will also work
        for larger audio files)
<occam> and
<occam> this p2p.indy is needed cause of the URI you have to add to a .torrent
<occam> and bandwith limitation is also a issue..
<occam> to keep bandwith for streaming...
<occam> <end>
? earthman notes the additional bandwidth issue and wonders if we need to go
  back and rediscuss that part of the meeting? schedule a later meeting to
  discuss it? micah: go
<micah> regarding traffic: it would probably be good to graph all traffic in
        and out of berkman via interface statistics, so we know everything,
        not just icecast. I can set that up, if jb or someone can get a snmpd
        port installed.
<micah> <end>
<earthman> [stack: jebba, mtoups]
<earthman> jebba: go
<jebba> bandwidth & p2p: the ahimsas each are limited in bandwidth by their
        100Mbit ethernet cards, so there is huge bandwidth there available for
        streaming use as well. It does tons of icecast streaming alll the time
        too. I'm also running bittorrent on one of the boxes. FYI. <end>
<mtoups> quick about stats: i'd like to set up snmpd on berkman and do mrtg
         like we do with other imc boxes.  <end>
? micah looks at mtoups
<earthman> stack is empty
<mtoups> so yeah i can do snmpd then <end for real>
? mark raises
? micah hands snmpd to mtoups
??? lee is now known as lee_afk
<earthman> otehr than me earlier :)  ibilio ... did we have a problem there
           rececntly? <end>
<mtoups> micah: i'll send you an mrtg conf for riseup
<earthman> mark: go
<mark> so sticking to the topic, is bermman needed for p2p or not?
<mark> <end />
<earthman> micah: go
? occam reaises for ahimsa traffic
<micah> sorry, I was not in the stack
<micah> <end>
<earthman> mark: so far we appeared to have consensed this was just for audio
           presently, but now others have joined later ... are we
           un-consensing that now people?
<earthman> occam: go
<earthman> then i'll get a clarification on the un-consensing of audio-only or
           not, after occam
<occam> ok, i dont know the ahimsa traffic situation, so exactly but i guess
        that there is much going traffic over it.. maybe to much? berkman is
        kinda unused in this point and is also located on a diffrent network..
? earthman notes we are just over 1 hour into the 2-hour stated meeting time
<occam> and berkman has much diskspace..
? earthman raises
<occam> i was just thinking about more usage for berkman beside the radio
        stuff<end>
? earthman calls on self
? micah raises hand
<earthman> twiki said disk was full i thought? (logs) <end>
<earthman> micah: go
? mark raises
? occam notes var was full, /home has space
<micah> I'd like to move on, we've done a lot in trying to identify usage of
        the box, and marc is going to ask imc-audio to come up with more
        definitory usage intentions.
<micah>  /var was full due to logs/nobody maintaining the system, that has
         been fixed
<micah> <end>
<earthman> mark: go
<mark> _if_ berkman is needed for p2p i'd propose p2p have lowest priority in
       terms of bandwidth and disk <end />
? occam /home 311G at all, 226G free at the moment
? jb raises
<earthman> okay, i'll summarize how things stand now, and then we'll move on,
           if no one objects
<earthman> jb: : go first :)
<jb> thing for bandwidth limitation: you can limit what you send but you cant
     limit what you receive, and both things interfer in strange ways.
<jb> i mean: i think we need more clues before limiting bandwidth.
<jb> <end>
<earthman> summary: we consensed on continuing the present functions of the
           box, and mark asking imc-audio to clarify, reporting back to
           imc-sysadmin.  next topic(s) on the agenda are the access-related
           ones, accounts, sudo, removal and policies regarding those
<earthman> okay?
? micah raises hand for agenda
<earthman> micah: go
<micah> It would be nice to identify who is going to be responsbible for the
        box, lee said he can take on icecast administration. Can ski/mtoups/jb
        and anyone else with good *bsd experience commit to maintaining
        berkman?
<micah> err, maybe I should have made that an agenda item
<micah> <end>
<earthman> Tue Feb 10 21:10:15 UTC 2004
? jb raises
<earthman> jb: go
? mark raises
<jb> i can admin the box a bit, but i already had my overdosis of Active.
<jb> re: Active -
<jb> iirc mark had found a bug two years ago about uploaded php: one co
<jb> uld simply upload php on the box and execute it.  At set of apache rules
     where i
<jb> mplemented to stop that, they are not on berkman.  Maybe it would be cool
     to mig
<jb> rate imc-radio to a box where admins have clues about what they run, edna
     or som
<jb> ething.
<jb> <end>
<earthman> mark: go
<mark> i do bsd and icecast admin on other boxes, so i can help. i'm also
       interested in helping develop liveradio/radio sites <end />
<earthman> anyone care to address active security vs migration vs other
           alternatives?
? micah raises hand
<earthman> micah: go
<micah> I am in support of migrating radio from active to something else for
        sure
? occam raises
? mark raises
<micah> I guess I was hoping that there would be some people who can commit to
        being responsbile for the box, sysadmins who know freebsd well enough
        to do it, so that it isn't just a mystery and someone hopefully will
        do it
<micah> <end>
<earthman> btw, so far we appear to have admin-volunteers from jb and mark
<earthman> occam: go
<micah> :)
? jb looks at Xeto
? stefani is available for bsd if needed.
? stefani goes back into hiding
? Xeto raises
??? Mode change #meeting[+ooo occam keysjrw stefani] by earthman
<occam> i can make some basic admin stuff too, for the migration would i not
        that we dont have any more admins to make Mir based setups.. so only
        for that reason i would prefer to use a dada or sf-active based site
<occam> not=note
<occam> <end>
<earthman> Xeto: go
<Xeto> well, i cant (i want) help with admin tasks, but like you know jb i'm
       beginer with bsd systems <end>
<Xeto> s/cant/can
<Xeto> hehe
<earthman> keysjrw: sorry i dind't notice you join. could you give a brief
           intro for the log, ending with "<end>" please?
? ski back
<ski> i can commit to adminning berkman
??? Mode change #meeting[+o ski] by earthman
??? lee_afk is now known as lee
<ski> s/adminning/helping to admin/
<ski> sorry for being out of order <end>
<earthman> thanks ski
<earthman> keysjrw: jump in with the intro when you're back
<lee> I can commit to admining Icecast and related media stuff on berkman
? micah apologizes derailing agenda
<earthman> micah: it's a needed addition,  np
? occam has another problem for the agenda: stuff wich is in /home/arc (logs,
  stream dumps.. i dont, i saw some stuff pointing to that dir)
<earthman> fits in with accounts etc too, heh
??? lee is now known as lee_afk
<earthman> okay, we have some administration tasks divvyied up, sahall we move
           on to accounts sudo and process?
<earthman> who is brave enough to start that? :)
<jb> err
<jb> i can start.
<earthman> jb: go :)
<jb> i'm for standard account policy.
<earthman> Tue Feb 10 21:21:09 UTC 2004
<jb> well
<jb> but we need to discuss about Arc account
<jb> since one of the first thing i did was /sbin/nologin him.
<earthman> do we have a list of who has accounts now?
<jb> end.
<jb> sure
? micah raises
? jb looking for the list in /etc/passwd
? occam http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Devel/ImcTechAccountPolicy
<micah> jb: can you talk about why you nologin'd arc?
? occam has + sudo
??? lee_afk is now known as lee
<earthman> micah: go in the interim? (occam: thanks for that url)
<jb> account list:
<jb> indy alex rednax arc wald karl rabble mysql gaba radio debug oddsock
     allen lee i
<jb> mc-nyc skyla mtoups natt postfix rupert akb pgsql salaud wsf2004 occam jb
     micah
<jb> stunnel ski
<jb> err, a couple of them are administrative: mysql, psql, etc.
<jb> why i kicked arc:
<jb> because of all the story about him kicking people in this box.
<jb> most things are rumored.  prolly most things are untrue.
? ski raises
<jb> however, while administering the box i didnt want this to happen to me.
<jb> also Arc was offline(this is poor excuse).
<jb> etc.
<jb> i have to say: my personal feelings about arc didnt stop me.
<lee> he never kicked anyone to my knowledge
<jb> and neither did the strong consensus about it.
<jb> <end>.
<earthman> micah: go, then ski
<jb> one sec.
? micah puts his hand down
<earthman> ski: you're up
<ski> jb did you have more?
<jb> i've to note that Arc account is like mine or others, let filter all
     accounts throught our policy for that.
<jb> <end>.
<earthman> ski: you're up now then
? mark raises
? ski passes
<earthman> mark: go
? ski raises for after he gets off phone :)
? earthman then raises for himself
? Zapata raises
<mark> as far as i understand arc already "separated from indymedia" and now
       his last tie has been cut, and i don't think he wants to be involved
       any longer.. <end />
<earthman> earthman, then Zapata
<earthman> 2 points
? ski back, differs to zapata
? ski back, defers to zapata even
<earthman> 1- are there any other accounts presently on the box that need
           review? 2- arc has not stated that he's "separated from indymeddia"
           to my awareness, and posted within the past few days to imc-tech, i
           believe (i'll grab the url after i ... <end>
<earthman> Zapata: go
<Zapata> ok
<Zapata> when berkman came online at its present spot
? ski raises after zapata
? mark raises
<Zapata> a number of people shared the root password
<Zapata> arc, wald and me
<Zapata> at some point during berkman's lifetime, arc said the box was rooted
<Zapata> (although he came back from it at a later stage)
<Zapata> at this point he changed the root password
<Zapata> I asked him to send me the root password as well...
<Zapata> which he adamantly refused...
<Zapata> I consider this kicking me from the box...
<Zapata> <end>
<earthman> the arc post was yesterday (http://lists.indymedia.
           org/pipermail/imc-tech/2004-February/012728.html)
<earthman> ski: go, then mark
<ski> i think all accounts need review, personally. if arc's sysadminning was
      really next to nonexistent, we should take a look and see what each is
      being used for, if we're not sure of a usage, remove the shell and see
      what breaks/who complains.
? micah raises in response to ski
<ski> i guess that's it <end>
<earthman> micah: go
<mark> arc told me about his "separation" in a personal email
<mark> <end >
? occam can confirm usage of "skyla", its a audio guy from germany
<earthman> (so much for tab completion, heh, micah go now)
<micah> I think this is a larger imc-sysadmin policy/procedure that should be
        written down somewhere. I've done this recently with a number of boxes
        , I've deactivated accounts that people have that haven't logged in
        for over 3 months, and will reactivate them if they have a need.
        However, I think we have moved towards an account policy where you
        have an account on the box if you are working on something that needs
        access, and that should be documented on the wiki that you ha
<earthman> micah: truncation after:                and that should be
           documented on the wiki that you ha
<micah> oops sorry let me add
<micah> ...documented on the wiki that you have access and why.
<micah> For example, the listwork working group and imc-sysadmin have access
        to sarai, and if you are not active in either group, then you should
        not have access. I have made a wiki for this
<micah> I will find it and paste it when I do, but can we do somehting similar
        for berkman?
<micah> <end>
? earthman raises
<micah> http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Sysadmin/ListworkAccess
? earthman calls self
? Zapata raises
<earthman> ski: were you volunteering to review the current berkman accounts
           with someone?
<earthman> Zapata: go
<lee> any thought on password limits?
<Zapata> I'm ok with micah's proposal...
? jb raises
<Zapata> and I should tell people that I have no actual ambition in becoming a
         berkman sysadmin
<Zapata> since I'm trying to stick to coding...
<Zapata> however...
<Zapata> vis-a-vis arc...
? micah raises regarding zapata's access
<Zapata> I'm very much against him ever acquiring potentially destructive
         access to any imc box...
<Zapata> but to berkman in particular...
<Zapata> for his past behaviour
<Zapata> but also because of the fact that I think micah won't be around the
         next time the box is down...
<Zapata> and then it'll be up to the imc techie closest to the actual machine.
         ..
<ski> re: reviewing accounts, yeah i can help with that (sorry to interrupt)
<Zapata> and that's me...
<Zapata> and I really refuse to deal with arc anymore...
? micah lowers hand regarding zapata's access
<Zapata> <end>
<earthman> jb: your turn
<Zapata> sorry
<Zapata> may I add another line...
<earthman> Zapata: pop it in there :)
<Zapata> I have no problem with arc "using" the box, as long as "use" is not
         potentially destructive...
<Zapata> <end>
??? Mode change #meeting[+o lee] by occam
<jb> about accounts on berkman
<jb> we've the bsd equivalent of UML installed
<jb> so reviewing access is a bit more complicated than normal
<lee> UML?
<jb> we can lock someone with icecast or something
? jebba is leaving. but i'd like to be able to set up mirrors on berkman of
  streams on ahimsa at some point. may just require an icecast password, but i
  can admin icecast from shell too, if i have perms. (sorry for interrupt.
  ciao!)
<jb> but i think  we need to review in a lax way
<jb> just not become silly because of layered security :p
<jb> i can explain the uml thing to lee in priv
<jb> end>
<earthman> micah, ski: both of you are caught up?
<ski> earthman - yeah
? micah nods
<earthman> lee: User Mode Linux
? micah raises hand
? occam agrees with removing root, sudo from arc@berkman
<lee> thanks
<earthman> micah: go
<micah> so I guess I had a proposal about access... which was that access to
        berkman should be limited to established working groups, and the
        access should be documented on the wiki for transparancy.
<micah> zapata agreed, and nobody seemed to disagree
<micah> <end>
? ski thinks thats more or les fine
<earthman> okay, i'll play the heavy here, as moderator
? mark raises
??? Signoff: jebba[Quit: Leaving]
? lee agrees with micah
<earthman> "for his (arrc's) past behaviour" could be concrete, rather than
           subjective personal bias.  do we need that clarified in the logs?
<earthman> lee: go
<earthman> Tue Feb 10 21:46:12 UTC 2004
<lee> I don't have anythin to say, I just agreed with micah.
<earthman> oops
<earthman> mark: go
<mark> practically then what do i do if i want an account to help w/ imc-audio
       stuff (web & icecast)?
<mark> <end>
<occam> http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Devel/ImcTechAccountPolicy
<occam> maybe?
<earthman> mark: join the imc-audio grroup? (see the url occam gave)
<mark> well i've been on that since 2000 ;)
<earthman> okay, we now are down to a quarter hour if we don't extend,  and
           let's see what else needs coverage
? micah raises hand
??? Signoff: ianb[Read error: Connection timed out]
<earthman> we don't have any newly-formalized policy on accounts/root/sudo,
           but pointed out the existing one, and agreed to apply it to berkman
           (i believe, correct me if wrong)
<earthman> micah: go
<micah> Maybe we should set up a list berkman-admins and those who volunteered
        to be responsible for berkman can subscribe, and account requests can
        go there, and the admins can create them and document them on the wiki
        . Or, maybe we can just use imc-sysadmin instead of creating yet
        another mailing list (YAML)?
<micah> <end>
? ski notes if someone gives me sudo, i can setup the other accounts
? mark raises hand
<earthman> who current has the sudo-giving abilities?
<earthman> mark: go
? micah raises hand
? lee will give ski sudo
? occam has sudo
<mark> given the apparently large number of sysadmins we may want a list to
       coordinate upgrades etc. <end />
? jb agrees
<ski> anyone who needs an account can /msg me i guess
? occam agrees wich micah, berkman admin stuff over imc-sysadmin
<earthman> okay, seems someone will volunteer to set up those two lists, if
           none disagree?
<earthman> okay, we need discusssion
<earthman> separate list or not ... someone raise
? micah raises
<earthman> micah: go
<lee> i'm not too intesteted in YAML
<micah> I vote for not because we have too many lists now and it is confusing
        for people. If berkman traffic become so annoying on imc-sysadmin
        (which is low traffic right now) then we consider splitting the list.
        If berkman traffic prepends the subject line with: Berkman then those
        who dont want to read it can filter
<micah> <end>
? mark agrees
? occam raises
? jb raises
? lee agrees
<earthman> (jails, sendmail named, p2p and merging liveradio.indy and radio.
           indy are still to be covered in the next 7 minutes)
<earthman> occam: go
<occam> berkman is also a globla tech box, there is no real local collective
        wich takes care of berkman (?!) so i guess its ok to use imc-sysadmin
        for it..
<ski> any volunteers to take over being evil channel dictator when earthman
      has to leave?
<occam> <end>
<earthman> ski: (*if* we continue ... i can stay a bit though)
<earthman> jb: go
<jb> i think we need a berkman-users@ list to clarify when we can do sysad
     stuff.  ex
<jb> ample: we need to reboot the box to finish security patch but we (i!)
     dont know
<jb> who uses it.
<jb> </end>
<lee> DN uses it every morning @ 8AM EST
? mark raises hand
<earthman> stack empty?
<earthman> mark: go
<mark> i would support a users list to send such announcements
<mark> < /end>
? occam notes that berkman-users is mostly the same tnen imc-audio?!
? micah raises hand
<earthman> micah: o
<earthman> go even
? ski twinkles at occam's suggestion of posting stuff for berkman's users to
  imc-audio
<micah> I still vote to not create another mailman list. Can we just make a
        list in a file on berkman, in /root/berkman-users and send mail to
        that when it is needed? This way new users of the box have to
        communicate with the admins or they dont get notified.
? jb doesnt want to subscrie to another high traf mailling list.
<micah> <end>
? ski raises
<earthman> ski: go
<ski> any reason we can't just post info for users to imc-audio (and move on
      with the discussion) <end>
<ski> (that is a proposal) <re-end>
? lee agrees
? mark agrees
<earthman> micah: change /root/berkman-users to /var/mail/.berkman-users
           perhaps (since there's no universal suodo on the box) (<end>
           self-call)
? occam smiles :)
<earthman> minus the dotfile typo
<earthman> 21:53 <@earthman> (jails, sendmail named, p2p and merging liveradio
           .indy and radio.indy are still
<earthman>                   to be covered in the next 7 minutes)
<earthman> which is important to anyone here?
<jb> i think it's quick.
? jb raise afterward.s
<mark> anyone think we need sendmail or named?
? occam can say something about merge of radio / liveradio
<earthman> yeah, everyone okay with extending a few more minutes?
<earthman> Tue Feb 10 21:59:17 UTC 2004
<lee> sending email might be nice, but that's what postfix is for, right?
? jb wants to clarify sendmail.
? lee raises
? ski wonders if he's the only one who cannot connect to berkman at the moment?
??? shayne[irc@localhost] joined channel #meeting
<earthman> lee: go, after jb
<lee> ski, i'm on
<jb> lee first of jb first?
<earthman> shayne: 5 seconds left of original meeting,  see /topic for agenda,
           ,we're extending VERY briefly
<earthman> jb go
? shayne nods. just slipping into observer spot.
<jb> ok
<jb> we can run sendmail/postfix whatever as client only and send mail without
     running the daemon.
<jb> also sendmail is in the base install, so we receive security updates
     without subscribing to another fsking ml.
<jb> </end>
<earthman> jb: done if none object :)  lee: you're up, go ahead
? mark wants to take his lunch break... ;)
<lee> has ayone here followed anything about IceShare (disregard that Arc has
      anything to do with it)?
<earthman> lee: <end>?
<lee> it's a p2p based media player with ogg support for audio and video
<lee> it may be good for the p2p based projects...URL in a second<end>
<lee> http://wiki.xiph.org/IceShare
? mark suggests finishing agenda points..
<earthman> lee: <end>?
? ski raises for question about arc's access...
? ski actually sudo in general, i guess
<lee> <end>
<earthman> jails: what we use is on the twiki, what else needs changing,
           anything?  or can we move on?
<earthman> ski: momentarily
<lee> p2p is on the adgenda
? jb raises
<earthman> jb: go
<jb> jails: we should move services there and install new stuffs inside.
<occam> p2p is what i sad befor, bit torrent, p2p.indy pointing to berkman..
<jb> </done>
<earthman> ski: now
? ski giggles at the concept of p2p.indy pointing somewhere in dns...
<earthman> (then we move on to "merge" and "p2P items)
<ski> anywho, did we consense to remove arc's sudo and reenable his account?
<earthman> ski: arc? sudo?
<ski> also, do we really want to be using nopasswd for everyone in sudo?
<ski> <end?
<ski> >
? jb 's not too friend with nopasswd
? occam neither
? earthman raises, suggests at a minimum archive what is in /home/arc <end>
? lee doesn't care but doesn't like typing passwords
<earthman> someone care to address the arc sitution?
? lee raises
<earthman> lee: go
<lee> i don't see why he should have an account if he has clearly stated that
      he is now working exclusively with xiph.org and want's nothing to do
      with Indymedia anymore.
? shayne raises an eybrow
<earthman> lee: <end>?
? earthman raisess
<lee> he and I do get along and I think he is talented. I can be a liazon
      between his xiph projects and berkman.
? jb raises
<lee> <end>
? earthman calls self
? micah raises hand
<lee> you'll have to excuse my slow typing  :)
<earthman> arc last posted to a global imc list *yesterday* and has, to my
           knowledge, made no *public* statements saying he is not active with
           imc to date
<earthman> this needs to be broughtt up <end>
<earthman> jb: go
? occam raises
? mark raises
<jb> for arc' account: he should be able to put his things in order.
<jb> and to clue future admin about a number of things.
<jb> </end>
<earthman> micah: go (then occam and then mark)
<jb> s/able/enabled/
<micah> I dont think he has said that he wants nothing to do with IMC, he told
        me in a private email that he doesn't want to get into indymedia
        politics again and is quite willing to use this opportunity to cut his
        ties to the organization.
<micah> <end>
? micah agrees with jb
<micah> err
<micah> let me unend
<occam> ;) go
<earthman> micah: go
<micah> I think what he means by this is he thinks he will be pushed out and
        will cut his ties if he is, but my reading is that he would stay
        involved otherwise<end>
<earthman> occam: go
<earthman> Tue Feb 10 22:13:38 UTC 2004
<occam> -bash-2.05b$ sudo du -s -h /home/arc/
<occam>  46G    /home/arc/
<lee> damn
<occam> <end>
? earthman gags
<lee> porno  :)
<earthman> oh, ,tend,  sorry, didn't see .... mark: go
<mark> just wanted to note quickly that iceshare spec still in development,
       currently "pre-alpha".  also does someone want to send arc an email
       saying his account has been reenabled to get his stuff (if this is what
       we are deciding).
<mark> <end>
<earthman> okay, we have a lot of private correspondence from arc, but nothing
           public other than yesterdays eemail to imc-tech ... is this correct?
<jb> i guess i should send the mail no?
<earthman> can someone make a proposal what to do with arc's berkman account
           please?
? lee raises
<earthman> lee: go
??? Mode change #meeting[+o shayne] by occam
<lee> I propose to kep his login, disable sudo and invite him to stay on the
      box doing Icecast/python-specific stuff
<lee> if he's interested, if not give him two weeks to deal with the 46GB
<lee> <end>
<earthman> anyone else?
? Zapata can live with lee's proposal
? occam raises
<earthman> occam: go
<occam> there is still this liveradio site wich was mostly setup by arc..?!
? shayne just briefly adds that itd be nice to keep arc around imho and leaves
  it at that. I respect passionate geeks despite his occasioanl spastic fury.
<lee> occam, and he's the only one who know how it works
<occam> and for me it makes no sende to have liveradio.indy and radio.indy...
??? jebba[irc@localhost] joined channel #meeting
<occam> sense even
? mark raises
<shayne> liveradio is all python?
<earthman> okay, that brings up the merge (if that's an "<end>")  mark: you go
           first, then we'll hit that point
<occam> <end>
<earthman> mark: go
<mark> i can discuss the liveradio issue with people on the imc-audio list.
       also volunteer to help merge.  <end>
<earthman> someone answser shayne?
<mark> yes python
<occam> yeah, its all pyhton i think, a yellow page server and a calendare app
        ..
<earthman> merge (done now?) and p2p were the remaining items
<shayne> hmm.
<earthman> anything for p2p?
? shayne can have a look at it and try and make sense of it if anyone wants
? occam raises for p2p again
? jb wonders if we clarified sendmail/named
<lee> it's also a radio scheduling system without a frontend
??? Mode change #meeting[+o jebba] by occam
<earthman> jb: i thought so, but ... someone speak up on that?   occam: you go
           now
? lee raises
<earthman> occam: go, lee: first in queue
<occam> well most stuff i sad befor, as long as we dont have radio streasm
        with 400ppl like the bolivia one berkman is mostly unused with icecast
        only..
? ski raises
? mark raises
<occam> and to decentralize the load /traffic on ahimsa it would be good to
        use berkman for p2p too
<occam> <end>
<earthman> point of order, meeting is aproaching 2.5 hours
<earthman> lee: go. then ski then mark
? micah has to leave sorry all
<earthman> micah: thanks for participating
<lee> ragarding Arc's big python project, refered to as "freeform"
<lee> the idea is quite nice but it needs more than one programmer to pan out
? shayne raises
<earthman> lee: is this topical to berkman?
<lee> oh yes
<lee> I see this as the future of Berkman
<lee> the original idea was a way to accept user uploaded mp3 and ogg and
      automatically schedule them into a continuous radio stream
<earthman> berkman is to be a cms development box??
<lee> I imagine something like this will be not only extremely valuable but
      also extremely popular
<lee> the backend is finished but there is no user interface
? occam notes that there is another project like this from the reboot.fm people
<lee> with a user interface it can function and be a very good tool for open
      publishing auio.
<lee> <end>
? earthman notes that freeforn was not in the agenda, suggests tabling this
  discussion
? occam wich is currently in use live
<earthman> ski: go
<ski> i can probably be of some help deciphering liveradio.indy code, it's
      based on freeform, and i do have some experience coding freeform. i'd
      take issue with freeform being a nice project, it's riddled with bugs,
      not very object oriented, and stores everything, even huge media files,
      in the db. i was under the impression that not much work was done on
      making freeform/liveradio.indy in to a scheduler for broadcasting, which
      we do need... of course i haven't looked at the c
<ski> <end>
<earthman> mark: go
<mark> i believe we want to keep sendmail client, axe sendmail daemon and
       named.   re: occam, i'm pretty sure we do want berkman to serve 400 or
       more streams simultaneously during major protests (we were doing 600
       streams march 2003. <end>
<earthman> occam: go
? occam inst in stack
<earthman> ski: trtuncation at:              which we do need... of course i
           haven't looked at the c
<jb> (this isnt truncation?)
<earthman> jb: "at the c"(ode?)
<jb> at the 'C' code.
<jb> ?
<jb> let's finish, we're all deadlocked.
? mark going to lunch....... will post log
<earthman> ski: anything further?
? occam will write a proposal to imc-tech / syadmin about p2p on berkman
<earthman> mark: link to it from the twiki page in the /topic please
? shayne just gonna add that he's prepared to help out with any py coding
  stuff if needs be.
<earthman> thanks all for your particpation
<jb> when do we reboot this box ?
? ski completes: looked at the code on berkman yet
? jb presents excuses to earthman
<earthman> unless ski completes his thought in the next 30 seconds :) i
           declare this meeting over, and we're now in the post-meeting mingle
           phase :)
<ski> uh, i'm done

-- MarkB - 10 Feb 2004
Topic revision: r1 - 10 Feb 2004, MarkB
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