Listwork IRC Meeting 18th October 2003

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Hi

Following is the log I have from last nights meeting.

Chris

21:00 -!- chrisc [irc at localhost] has joined #meeting
21:00 <@epsas> i believe so
21:00 < chrisc> hi
21:01 <@ski> aloha
21:01 <@micah> you know things aren't going so good when you say "I need to drink some more email" instead of "water"
21:01 -!- mode/#meeting [+o chrisc] by ski
21:01 <@ski> hehe
21:01 <@micah> wonder where alster, pietro, luis, etc. are
21:02 <@chrisc> i've a load of lag and i'm also in a imc screening /social... so i'm not gonna be of much use here... but i can read the logs later...
21:03 -!- Alster [irc at localhost] has joined #meeting
21:03 <@micah> speaking of which, is someone logging who can get them out?
21:03 < Alster> hi
21:03 <@chrisc> i'll have logs and could post them tomorrow
21:03 <@epsas> hmm
21:03 <@epsas> i am not running irssi now
21:04 <@micah> chrisc: ok, great
21:04  * chrisc i'm running irssi
21:04 -!- mode/#meeting [+o Alster] by micah
21:04 <@micah> so, we should pull the agenda together and get started then
21:04  * micah notes he has spent all morning fighting email/mailing lists so is a bit worn
21:04 <@epsas> do you think we should wait another 5 minutes?
21:05 <@epsas> to see if there are any stragglers?
21:05 <@micah> yeah, but we should probably get the agenda together while the stragglers come
21:05 <@epsas> coolness
21:06  * micah wonders who all is here anyways
21:06 <@Alster> dont expect too much  from me today, my brains are somewhat squirked
21:06 <@micah> alster, me, epsas, chrisc isn't really
21:07 <@chrisc> http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/listwork/2003-October/thread.html#4839
21:07 <@micah> listwork meeting agenda:
21:07 <@micah>    - sarai and galaxy-7
21:07 <@micah>    - lurker
21:07 <@micah>    - mailman upgrade
21:07 <@micah>    - espas code for managing aliases
21:08 <@micah>    - lists requests
21:08 <@micah>    - new listworkers
21:08 <@micah> listwork newsletter:
21:08 <@micah>    - jb seach engine
21:08 <@micah>    - lists.indy.org/$listname working
21:08 <@micah> there were a few additional things that got tacked on?
21:08 <@chrisc>       + spam purging
21:08 <@chrisc>       + uri persistance
21:08 <@chrisc>       + usenet gatewaying
21:08 <@chrisc>       + nah6 secure list plugin [1]
21:08 <@chrisc> http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/listwork/2003-October/004841.html
21:09 <@Alster> and that pgp hack for mailman which would go together with the upgrade
21:09 <@micah> also, along with mailman upgrade, we need to talk about patches and package, so maybe nah6 can go in there too
21:09 <@Alster> oh its there, missed it
21:09 <@micah> :)
21:09  * chrisc i have massive lag here
21:10 <@Alster> yeah, last line of what chris posted
21:10 <@Alster> same here chris
21:10 <@mtoups> hi
21:10 <@Alster> hi
21:10 <@micah> alster: there was another one that I told you we should put on there, trying to find it
21:10 <@mtoups> just got here
21:11 <@Alster> hmm, can't really remember micah
21:11 <@Alster> i admit i didn't prepare
21:11 <@micah> mtoups: we are trying to get the agenda together
21:12 <@micah> alster: was it something about integrating your help form with the ticket system?
21:12 <@Alster> could be
21:12 <@Alster> did we chat on that or was it emails?
21:13 -!- sheri [~sheri at dsl231-034-096.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #meeting
21:13 <@micah> I am not sure
21:13 <@micah> well, if we can think of it... then we can add
21:13 <@micah> so what do we have so far?
21:13 <@chrisc> hi sheri, agenda here: http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/listwork/2003-October/004841.html
21:14 <@Alster> just the buggy form, and RT
21:14 <@micah> ok, this is what I have
21:14 <@micah> - sarai and galaxy-7
21:14 <@micah> - lurker
21:14 <@micah> - mailman upgrade
21:14 <@micah> - espas code for managing aliases
21:14 <@micah> - lists requests
21:14 <@micah> - new listworkers
21:14 <@micah> listwork newsletter:
21:15 <@micah> - jb seach engine
21:15 <@micah> - lists.indy.org/$listname working
21:15 <@micah> + spam purging
21:15 <@micah> + uri persistance
21:15 <@micah> + usenet gatewaying
21:15 <@micah> + nah6 secure list plugin [1]
21:15 <@epsas> can someone please spell my name right????  (heh, j/k =)
21:15 <@micah> err, move nah6 up to the mailman upgrade
21:16 <@Alster> the bayesian would go with the upgrade as well, right?
21:16 <@mtoups> well i would lump spam purging and uri persistance into "better archiving" (since lurker is just one particular implmentation we could go with)
21:16 <@micah> Alster: no, actually that would go in a spam category
21:17 <@Alster> ic
21:17 <@Alster> maybe we can add it so we don't forget it
21:17 <@micah> ok, this is what I have so far:
21:17 <@micah> - sarai and galaxy-7
21:17 <@micah> - better archiving (lurker, uri persistance, spam purging)
21:17 <@micah> - mailman upgrade (chinese, nah6, offlist patches/package)
21:17 <@micah> - espas code for managing aliases
21:17 <@micah> - lists requests
21:17 <@micah> - new listworkers
21:17 <@micah> - spam
21:17 <@micah> - listwork newsletter (how to deal with this, constructing it)
21:18 <@micah> so anyone want to move that stuff around?
21:18 <@micah> I want to make sure we talk about the listwork newsletter, can we move that up after mailman upgrade, and move epsas code up under sarai?
21:19 <@epsas> micah - thanks.  i have to get out of here by 11:30 my time (2130gmt)
21:19 <@mtoups> also a brief mention of the postfix/dns situation that came up last week at some point, don't know if that's a whole item
21:19 <@epsas> 11:00 pref.
21:21 <@Alster> oh we're missing the FAQ on the agenda
21:22 <@Alster> mailing list admins/moderators/users FAQ on the one hand, mailman/listwork admins on the other hand
21:22 <@micah> where shuld that go?
21:22 <@micah> i'll put it at the end
21:22 <@micah> - sarai and galaxy-7
21:22 <@micah> - espas code for managing aliases
21:22 <@micah> - better archiving (lurker, uri persistance, spam purging)
21:22 <@micah> - mailman upgrade (chinese, nah6, offlist patches/package)
21:22 <@micah> - listwork newsletter
21:22 <@micah> - lists requests
21:22 <@micah> - new listworkers
21:22 <@micah> - spam
21:23 <@micah> - FAQ
21:23 <@micah> ok, should we get started then?
21:23 <@micah> are people ready?
21:23  * micah wants some coffee
21:23 <@Alster> http://lists.indymedia.org introductionary note on public mailing list archives and link to RT might require discussion as well
21:23 <@mtoups> i'm ready
21:24 <@mtoups> maybe while micah gets coffee i can mention a brief technical issue
21:24 <@micah> go ahead
21:24 <@mtoups> sorry to jump in like that
21:24  * micah adds alster's note to list
21:24 <@micah> not a problem, I'm not moderating or anything :)
21:25 <@mtoups> but i guess most people here follow listwork and remember a problem we had a day or two ago when sheri and mark's @indymedia.org aliases started bouncing
21:25  * chrisc nods
21:25 <@mtoups> what happened was, bind (the dns server used as a cache on sarai) stopped working for some reason, and so when sarai couldn't resolve speakeasy.org for example, the mailbounced
21:26 <@mtoups> now it seemed to only happen for a few hosts (maybe micah can explain why bind behaves that way, something about caches)
21:26 -!- amino [irc at localhost] has joined #meeting
21:26 <@mtoups> but
21:26 <@mtoups> we fixed two things here
21:27 <@mtoups> 1. restarted bind (duh) and got sarai to query more than just localhost and 4.2.2.2
21:27 <@mtoups> (in /etc/resolv.conf)
21:27 <@mtoups> this is good
21:27 <@mtoups> 2. i changed unknown_address_reject_code in /etc/postfix/main.cf
21:28 <@mtoups> this is because, really, we should not have bounced the mail in that case but held it to see if the dns problem would be corrected or not
21:28 <@mtoups> however #2 has repurcussions
21:28 <@mtoups> postfix says
21:28 <@mtoups> # Do not change this unless you have a complete understanding of RFC 822.
21:28 <@mtoups> so i guess we could go over what the mail response codes and shit mean
21:29 <@mtoups> but anyway
21:29 <@mtoups> the problem is that when mailman decides to send mail to an address with a bad hostname, we had problems
21:29 <@mtoups> so back in may i set unknown_address_reject_code = 550
21:30 <@mtoups> which basically means when postfix gets mail sent to a hostname it can't resolve, it bounces it, which is usually good because mailman then processess the bounce, maybe retries a few times then unsubscribes the address like it does whenever mail bounces
21:30 <@mtoups> now that it is set to 450 again we have problems
21:30 <@mtoups> micah may remember these
21:30 <@mtoups> basically mail on sarai is slow now because postfix has bogus emails stuck in its queue
21:31 <@mtoups> i know changing that line in postfix 's config will fix it
21:31 <@mtoups> but i'm not crazy about what happened with the aliases before
21:31 <@mtoups> so i'm not really sure if thats a great solution
21:32 <@mtoups> so i'm kind of throwing this out there in case other people can or want to take a look
21:32 <@mtoups> really i'm not a postfix expert, i originally came onto listwork to help with mailman upgrades, something i have more experience with
21:32 <@micah> mtoups: when you said you aren't crazy about what happened with the aliases before, what do you mean?
21:33 <@mtoups> micah: good question, i mean i think it was poor behavior to bounce mail in that case, we should have returned a 450 which would have implied a retry
21:33 <@mtoups> however the retries are bad when we're talking about mailman
21:33 <@micah> hrm
21:33 <@mtoups> basically i want postfix to behave one way in its interaction with mailman, and another with the outside world
21:34 <@mtoups> i can find the reference in the sysadmin/listwork archives from may when this change first happened
21:34 <@micah> mtoups: what do you think about sending a message to postfix-users summarizing your question/concerns and see what kind of response you get?
21:34 <@micah> that list is pretty helpful (weiste often responds to people when they send messages)
21:34 <@mtoups> sounds good.  i think i got this original hack from various lists but its worth following up on
21:34 <@micah> I think you've got a good handle on the problem
21:35 <@mtoups> for now i will reimplement the may changes to get things flowing faster
21:35 <@micah> sounds like a good idea
21:35 <@micah> maybe you should make a RT ticket so you remember that you have to do this? :)
21:35 <@mtoups> i just want to keep people in the loop on this since stuff can break and sheri can tell you that we need this stuff to not break :)
21:36 <@micah> yeah, delicate balance
21:36 <@micah> ok, speaking of break, can we move onto sarai/galaxy 7?
21:36 <@mtoups> yeah go for it :)
21:36 -!- micah changed the topic of #meeting to: sarai and galaxy-7
21:36  * Alster wonders what galaxy 7 is
21:36 <@micah> ok, so... galaxy-7 is the colo place where sarai is located
21:37 <@micah> it is a long story
21:37 <@mtoups> one note, if you want to find my mail on this original problem search for "mailman postfix queue" on google, end
21:37 <@micah> basically they originally said we could put the machine there for free, and we shipped it there, and then they freaked out because we hadn't been paying
21:37  * sheri will keep quiet and just listen in wonder at everyone do their fabulous work.
21:37 <@mtoups> (and right now aliases are about 20 minutes lagged, really done now :) )
21:37 <@micah> so we've had to pay them in the past, and they are really crazy
21:38 <@epsas> hmmm
21:38 <@micah> in fact, I want to propose that we send them another $50, in addition jebba donated $100 to them for sarai, so if we send them 50 we should be good for a couple more months
21:38 <@micah> but, problems were that we couldn't get access to the colo for days (that was the most recent outage)
21:39 -!- leonardo [~leonardo at dl-nas1-cba-C8B040EA.p001.terra.com.br] has joined #meeting
21:39 <@micah> good news is, riseup just got a key to the colo
21:39 <@micah> so hopefully that will make things better in the future
21:39 <@micah> but... we were talking about possibly moving sarai to the seattle IMC and putting it on the DSL there
21:39 <@micah> unfortunately, we learned just the other day that soon seattle IMC is going to have to pay for that DSL :()
21:40 < sheri> can i respond?
21:40 <@micah> so basically, we need to decide on a plan of attack, next steps 
21:40 < sheri> that's not exactly correct.
21:40 <@micah> there are some opportunities available in the next few months, but we dont know for sure
21:40 <@micah> sheri?
21:40 -!- leonardo [~leonardo at dl-nas1-cba-C8B040EA.p001.terra.com.br] has quit [Client Quit]
21:40 <@micah> go ahead
21:40 < sheri> the seattle imc has been paying for our dsl for 2 years now.
21:40 < sheri> so this is not about us all of a sudden having to pay for that.  
21:41 < sheri> it would work.  
21:41 <@micah> sheri
21:41 <@micah> actually the seattle IMC has not been paying for its DSL, it has been paying for some additional features of the dsl
21:41  * epsas raises
21:41 < sheri> we've been getting 250 bills for our dsl.
21:41 <@micah> some additional IPs or something
21:41 <@micah> 250/month?
21:41 < sheri> 160 each month i believe.
21:42 < sheri> i can check the latest finance report.  
21:42 <@micah> sheri: yeah I am pretty sure that is going to change
21:42 <@micah> speakeasy was giving the seattle IMC a really good deal
21:42 < sheri> no, we're paying 189.55 a month.
21:42 <@micah> sheri: I believe the normal price is something around $300/month
21:43 <@micah> according to their website
21:43 < sheri> they were giving us a good deal, at first it was free, then about 100 then 120 and now 180.  it's gone up 2-3 times in the last 4 years.
21:43 <@micah> right, and according to the letter from mike, they will cease offering seattle IMC the good dsl deal, and it will have to pay normal price
21:43 < sheri> mike apgar just emailed me, i will just doublecheck with him on this since i'm chatting all friendly with him.
21:43 <@micah> ok, thanks that would be good to know
21:43 < sheri> okay....
21:44 <@micah> otherwise the seattle IMC is pretty psyched to have the box there
21:44 < sheri> i will just doublecheck with him. 
21:44 < sheri> yeah otherwise :))  
21:44 <@epsas> is this SDSL? (or a DSL with fast up)?
21:44 <@micah> also, espe is offering a place in a couple months, assuming things go well, so thats the future opportunities
21:44 <@micah> epsas: not sure
21:45 <@micah> I can look it up
21:45 <@mtoups> epsas: i've heard it is 1.1/1.1, but i dunno if that'll keep up at 299/mo
21:45 <@micah> mtoups: speakeasy's price for 1.1/1.1 is #299/mo
21:45 <@micah> the problem is seattle IMC has been paying $189/month, so it would be going up another hunmdred
21:46 <@mtoups> micah: well ok, i guess i'm asking, will seattle imc continue to get that speed dsl if it involves paying $299/mo ?  the email i saw from speakeasy seemed to suggest that the bill would go up to that amount
21:46 <@micah> so... does anyone have a problem with us paying galaxy7 another $50 so they will stay off our backs?
21:46 <@epsas> micah - that seems like a reasonable thing to do
21:46 <@mtoups> micah: YES we cannot afford to have another downtime caused by galaxy7 crankiness
21:46 <@micah> mtoups: that is a question for sea IMC, I know the SEA IMC is not having fun financial days
21:46 <@mtoups> micah: no one is :(
21:47 <@micah> I think sheri will find out if it does go up from mike, and if it does if the sea IMC will pay for it
21:47 <@micah> I guess at that time we can make a dicision what to do
21:47 < sheri> i will get an answer from mike about exaclty how much more.  and i will bring this up to the seattle imc.  regardless, we're going to have to find ways to pay for it.  an extra 100 month is not great, but we have a new subtenant coming in and we're hoping things will shift.
21:47 < sheri> (1) seattle imc is supportive of sarai moving to our space
21:47 <@micah> yeah, but if we can pay $50 a month at galaxy7....
21:47 <@micah> it might be worth it to keep it there
21:47 < sheri> (2) we want to make sure the box is secure
21:48 <@micah> yay sheri and seattle imc! :)
21:48 < sheri> (3) i imagine we will just face the fact of having an additional 100 added to our bill.  we're in high fundriasing mode with new people coming on to help out.
21:48 < sheri> i'll let listwork know as soon as i hear from mike probably later today and then will confirm at tuesday's meeting.  
21:48 <@micah> ok, lets give the $50 to galaxy, wait to hear back from sheri and then figure out our next move
21:48 <@micah> we've got a few months, so we are ok right now
21:49 < sheri> ciao everyone.  i'll be gone, but just logging....:))  thanks for all the great work.
21:49  * chrisc nods
21:49 -!- micah changed the topic of #meeting to: espas code for managing aliases
21:49 <@micah> lets move on!
21:49 <@micah> we've got a lot to do today :)
21:49 <@micah> epsas, you've got the mic
21:49 <@epsas> okay
21:49  * micah shines the spotlight on epsas
21:50 <@epsas> i wrote some code to enable the disparate IMCs to manage their "@city.indymedia.org" addresses
21:50 <@epsas> it's written in python and uses human-editable plain-text files for storage
21:51 <@epsas> it is meant to output a postfix-compatible alias file
21:51 <@epsas> http://206.127.251.181/pyvirt/index.py  for a demo of the system
21:52 <@epsas> right now, the 'user-side' of the system is complete
21:52 <@epsas> we just need an 'admin' mode and a better authentication scheme for the system
21:52 <@ski> hmm
21:52 <@ski> Server error!
21:52 <@ski> The server encountered an internal error and was unable to complete your request. 
21:53 <@epsas> http://206.127.251.181/pyvirt.tgz for the tarball
21:53 <@epsas> ahh! server error!
21:53  * chrisc i get internal server errors on the demo site
21:53 <@ski> Error message: 
21:53 <@ski> Premature end of script headers: edit.py 
21:53 <@epsas> ahh, i was editing that file
21:53 <@epsas> use the code in the tarball
21:53 <@micah> so, it needs some work before we can use it still?
21:53 <@ski> doesn't that msg usually mean you forgot "Content-type: text/html\n\n"
21:54  * micah wonders what kind of bribe epsas needs to get it done
21:54 <@epsas> ski - no.  that means there was an error in the python code that spat out debug messages ahead of "Content..."
21:55 <@mtoups> question, is it a problem if we have username collisions, ie "epsas at imc1.indymedia.org" vs. "epsas at imc2.indymedia.org" ?
21:55 <@epsas> micah - no bribing - i'll just get back working on it
21:55  * micah puts away his wad of bills
21:55 <@epsas> mtoups - hmm, i don't think it will be a problem
21:55 <@micah> mtoups: I dont believe thats a problem
21:56 <@mtoups> do we have "virtual domains" set up with postfix?
21:56 <@micah> it will be very sweet once this is done
21:56 <@micah> mtoups: yeah, we do email for indymediapr.org
21:57 <@micah> epsas: do you need people to help you work on it?
21:57 <@epsas> micah - that would be nice
21:57 <@mtoups> micah: ok if you take responsibility for the postfix stuff i'm all for it :)
21:58 <@epsas> (just fixed the 'edit.py' problem)
21:58 <@epsas> yeah
21:58 <@epsas> another thing
21:58  * micah wonders who can help epsas
21:58 <@epsas> i was wondering what the best scheme for publishing the alias file would be
21:58 <@micah> mtoups: yeah, I'll take responsibility for that
21:58 <@epsas> a cron job to compile the master alias file
21:59 <@epsas> and maybe checking it in with RCS?
21:59 <@epsas> or having an admin eyeball the compiled alias file and checking it in manually?
22:00 <@micah> hmm
22:00  * Alster wonders whether it's not possible to write directly to the aliases file?!
22:00 <@micah> is the problem that you dont want to be writing to the aliases file while someone or something else is?
22:00 <@mtoups> well if an admin does it manually it isn't much better than the current system
22:01 <@micah> I have an idea
22:01 <@micah> it is possible to setup multiple alias files in postfix
22:02 <@micah> so we just setup a specific alias file for your program, that only your program writes to
22:02 <@micah> you just have to deal with locking so that not more than one person is using your program at the same time to write to the file
22:02 <@micah> kosher?
22:02 <@epsas> well, pyvirt writes each domain to it's own subfile in the pyvirt directory
22:03 <@mtoups> even better, i think
22:03 <@epsas> and then another script concatenates the domain subfiles into a master alias file
22:03 <@micah> wouldn't it have to be a postfix virtual file though and not an alias file?
22:03 <@epsas> i think you can use diff aliases file
22:03 <@epsas> yeah, virtual file (sorry)
22:04 <@micah> epsas: that sounds like a good way to do it
22:04 <@epsas> the 'easiest' option would be to enable mysql mapping in postfix (but that would add another layer of complication)
22:04 <@micah> yeah, I am not so sure how hot I am on having mysql running on sarai
22:04 <@epsas> i have some free time this weekend (well, tommorow)
22:05 <@micah> we need to find another python programmer who can help out
22:05 <@epsas> yeah, it would be good to have another eyeball on this
22:05 <@epsas> especially for the auth part of the code
22:05 <@micah> if jb would show back up....
22:05 <@micah> anyways, lets move on, we've got a lot to get to still
22:05 <@epsas> i'd like to have a session-based system (instead of passing the login and pw through POST/GET)
22:05 <@micah> coo'?
22:05 <@epsas> coo!
22:06  * epsas is audi
22:06 -!- mode/#meeting [+oo amino sheri] by ski
22:06 <@micah> later, thanks epsas!!
22:06  * epsas is away [Beach Blanket Bingo!/l:on]
22:06 -!- micah changed the topic of #meeting to: better archiving (lurker, uri persistance, spam purging)
22:06 <@micah> ok, what do we need to talk about here?
22:06 <@micah> basically URI persistance and spam purging are all dependant on better archiving taking place
22:07 <@micah> ansti was a ways (I dont know how far) into setting up lurker as an alternative
22:07 <@micah> he shows up on irc all the time, but isn't responding, and his email is bouncing, so I dont know if this will ever get finished
22:07 <@mtoups> i'm not convinced that lurker is the perfect solution yet
22:07 <@mtoups> it is very good
22:07 <@micah> has anyone actually talked to him?
22:07 <@mtoups> but i think we should each do some brainstorming/research on it
22:07 <@micah> Alster: he is in germany, maybe you can go pay him a little visit :)
22:07 <@mtoups> (peep luker here: http://people.debian.org/~terpstra/splash/index.html)
22:08 <@Alster> http://lurker.sourceforge.net/
22:08 <@mtoups> micah: I haven't heard a peep from ansti since august
22:09 <@micah> yeah, ok... hmm
22:09 <@Alster> micah,  i doubt i can visit him but i guess i'll make it to put his attention on that topic
22:09 <@micah> I guess I will try and locate him, he's a debian developer and I know some developers who could track him down maybe
22:09 <@micah> anyways, I think it is a good idea, if people do a little research on other archivers, check out freshmeat options
22:09 <@mtoups> well the URI persistance is a must, as chrisc can attest to also
22:10 <@micah> I dont know if anyone has looked into gmane, dont know what I think about it as a possibility, but...
22:10 <@Alster> ansti <ansti AT idz D0T net>,
22:10 <@micah> so a question of priorities... do we want to deal with the list archiver before upgrading mailman?
22:11 <@micah> alster: yeah I get about 10 bounces from that email a day
22:11 <@Alster> oic
22:11 <@micah> <ansti at idz.net>: Name service error for name=idz.net type=MX: Host not found,
22:11 <@micah>     try again
22:11 <@micah> I think URI persistance is pretty important, spam purging of the archives is way less important
22:12  * chrisc nods
22:12 <@micah> but getting chinese supoprt, offlist patches and a new mailman on seems pretty important too
22:12 <@mtoups> micah: well the one thing we wanted to have as a prerequisite to both the lurker setup and the mailman upgrade is having a full test env for sarai on kropotkin
22:12 <@mtoups> i was working on this right before the big sarai crash recently
22:12 <@micah> mtoups: and then the big staughton crash
22:12 <@mtoups> ugh yeah don't remind me
22:12 <@micah> sorry
22:12 <@mtoups> hehe
22:13 <@micah> ok
22:13 <@micah> so getting the test env on kropotkin is the highest priority then
22:13 <@mtoups> yeah
22:13 <@mtoups> the main thing is having something as close to sarai as possible
22:13 <@micah> I personally think the mailman upgrade+patches is a higher pirotiy and would be easier than the larchiver project
22:13 <@mtoups> so we know if things work 100% before deploying
22:14 <@micah> ok, lets try and rally around getting kropotkin together
22:14 <@mtoups> yeah people who don't have kropotkin accounts speak up
22:14 <@micah> I am sure if mtoups, me and matze all spent some time on it, we could get it done quickly
22:15 <@mtoups> also yeah we need to put the patches into the debian package which i will help with
22:15 <@mtoups> because right now i'm kind of scared to touch the code on sarai since it has been patched on the spot.  in the future, we will patch and build on kropotkin and then move it to sarai once it works
22:15 <@micah> ok, lets try to get kropotkin together this week and if we can get the patches/packages organized
22:16  * mtoups nods
22:16 <@micah> ok, next item up for bid
22:16 <@micah> mailman upgrade :)
22:16 -!- micah changed the topic of #meeting to: mailman upgrade
22:16 <@mtoups> mailman 2.1.3 is out and less buggy!
22:16 <@micah> so yeah...
22:16  * Alster got no kroptokin account but doesn't know whether he needs one
22:16 <@micah> any idea about mailman 2.1.4?
22:16 <@mtoups> 2.1.3 is like two weeks old
22:16  * ski is goin to bed, but matt can you talk to people informally about the stuff patrick and us were talkin about?
22:17 <@micah> ski: isn't it the middle of th day?
22:17 <@micah> :)
22:17 <@micah> so we've been putting all the patches that we apply to mailman in a specific directory
22:18 <@micah> we should continue to do this, and I think if we can figure out how to make the package with the patches, we should document it so it is easier
22:18 <@ski> micah - not when you've been up since 4am :-)
22:18 <@micah> if we need other language patches we should definately find them now
22:18 <@micah> and any other patches
22:20 <@micah> if anyone wants to take a look around, there is a patch repository on the mailman site, find anything new that we need to apply while we get prepared and then let us know
22:20 <@Alster> speaking of languages, does mailman support switching lnguage per user, not per list?
22:21 <@mtoups> alster: no, not much works per user right now, that's going to require redesigning how mailman works and will probably happen in version 3.0
22:21 <@mtoups> unless people can set a cookie for the website or something
22:21 <@Alster> i see, thx for the heads up on this
22:22 <@mtoups> lists can set the "default language" for that list, and then people can change the language when they visit the site
22:22 <@micah> ok, should we move on then? we pretty much tackled this one in the last agenda item
22:22 <@mtoups> one quick thought
22:22 <@mtoups> kind of following up epsas alias mangement
22:23 <@mtoups> so i see the constant requests to have stuff removed from archives to be a big problem for listwork
22:23 <@mtoups> it is labor intensive and there are lots and lots of requests, some of which are seriuos and some of which are trivial
22:24 <@mtoups> we really need to come up with a way of cutting this down, either by better educating users about public archives, educating admins about making archives private, or some other easy way for archives to be managed
22:24  * chrisc would be willing to help with removing stuff 
22:24 <@micah> great, also, alster had an agenda item about this
22:24 <@mtoups> chrisc: good, also, if we remove stuff RIGHT i don't think the renumbering should happen so often, though pipermail is mysterious
22:24 <@mtoups> oh sorry i don't think i saw it
22:25 <@micah> making some textual changes to lists.indymedia.org about the fact that archives are public (and providing more updated links to RT instead of mailman-owner, etc)
22:25 <@micah> I basically think that we should do it, we don't need to discuss it :)
22:25 <@micah> if noone disagrees, I thnk alster should just go ahead
22:25 <@mtoups> well it also needs to go into the emails people get when they sign up for the list
22:25 <@micah> chrisc: do you need any access to be able to help with that?
22:26 <@micah> mtoups: yes, alster suggested that also
22:26 <@micah> we'd have to modify all the email templates to include that
22:26 <@mtoups> the dc-imc lists have a good way of explaining this
22:26 <@mtoups> BUT i still think most users are dumb and will miss this
22:27 <@chrisc> micha: i would just need a sari account i guess?
22:27 <@mtoups> i support chris getting a sarai account and will do it if needed
22:27 <@Alster> educating is just one thing , i will reduce the requests, but requests will remain
22:27 <@micah> mtoups: yeah, most people will miss it, but I think including it for those who dont will help
22:27 <@micah> mtoups: go for it
22:28 <@mtoups> on some level the problem is that people attach so much value to what google thinks of them
22:28 <@mtoups> and that bothers me :)
22:28 <@micah> alster: can you take care of modifying the lists.indy page to include the stuff you were talking about?
22:28 <@micah> mtoups: hehe
22:28 <@Alster> yeah i'll do that
22:28  * chrisc wonders if sari has mutt for editing mbox files
22:28 <@mtoups> chrisc: yes
22:28 <@Alster> what about thesubscription confirmation email  templates?
22:28 <@chrisc> :-)
22:29 <@micah> chric: have a look at the docs/faq about the proper way to remove things from the archive
22:29 <@mtoups> i have half-seriously considered that we should robots.txt sarai's archives and let jb's script do the searching, but that's kind of bigger than the original problem
22:29 <@micah> alster: if you put together some text for the subscription confirmation email templates and then put it in an RT ticket someone will get it eventually :)
22:29 <@mtoups> remember we'll need to translate it to several languages
22:29 <@chrisc> michah: yep will look 
22:30 <@micah> mtoups: ugh-o-rama!
22:30 <@Alster> micah: good hint :)
22:30 <@micah> alster: translate it into german too :)
22:30 <@Alster> mtoups: good hint,too :)
22:30 <@micah> I think we can get french and spanish pretty easily
22:30  * chrisc i often use google to find stuff in list archives...
22:30 <@micah> chrisc: I do all the time too
22:31 <@micah> ok... 
22:31 <@chrisc> so a robots.txt would be bad...
22:31 <@mtoups> yeah it would
22:31 -!- micah changed the topic of #meeting to: listwork newsletter / list admins list
22:31 <@mtoups> but man reading listwork is starting to make me resent google
22:31 <@micah> so this discussion has been floating around a bit, its actually two different things
22:31 <@micah> one is creating a mailing list that has all the list admins on it where they can talk amongst themselves
22:31 <@micah> about dealing with things etc.
22:32 <@micah> the other is sending out a newsletter to all list admins/summaries list so people know whats been going on (we need to increase our communication with list admins)
22:32 <@micah> so there are problems we need to figure out in order to do both of these
22:33 <@micah> so lets look at the first one
22:33 <@micah> we've talked about the problems on the lists... 
22:33  * micah notes his brain is fried
22:33 <@micah> ok, so subscribing all the list admins to a list admins list automatically is not nice
22:34 <@micah> but how do we let them know it exists
22:34 <@micah> so it is worth making?
22:34 <@micah> and how do we let new list-admins know it exists?
22:34 <@micah> I thought someone had a solution to this, but I can't think very well right now
22:34 <@Alster> i proposed to enter this info in the "list created" emails
22:35 <@Alster> which are sent to list admins upon list creation
22:35 <@mtoups> alster: good call
22:35  * Alster grins
22:35 <@mtoups> well here's a thought, we kind of need to do a "list admin roll call" anyway since i think some admins and some lists are dead
22:36 <@mtoups> so maybe we just do one mass-mail of admins and invite them to join, and also see if they're still adminning, need help or another admin added, have questions, or if the list itself should be blown away
22:36 <@Alster> a lot are dead in fact. 
22:36 <@mtoups> yeah alster has expressed an interest in help cleaning stuff up
22:36 <@mtoups> which is a big project
22:36 <@Alster> i got that held mail list some days ago
22:36 -!- geneX [irc at localhost] has joined #meeting
22:37 <@Alster> thing is i wouldn't want to send out a request to decide on the future of their lists to these admins
22:37 <@mtoups> i'm thinking it'd be cool to get a bunch of people  together on irc one day and as a group purge old stuff frmo sarai.  maybe like debian's "bug squashing parties" because its the sort of work that one person could not handle on their own
22:37 <@Alster> asl long as we have no way to make them do some sort of self-service
22:38 <@Alster> i don't see the "big bunch of work" behind that
22:38 <@Alster> effectively it's just sending out a single email to lots of list admins
22:38 <@mtoups> oh i'm talking about cleaning up all the dead and un-adminned lists
22:38 <@micah> can we focus on the list admins list problem, and may discuss purging old lists later?
22:38 <@mtoups> yeah my mind kind of jumped there
22:38 <@Alster> these requests will be entered in RT
22:39 <@micah> ok, what do you guys think about including the info about the list-admins list in the listwork newsletter, and that gets sent out to all list admins?
22:39  * chrisc i gotta go, i'll mail logs later
22:39 <@micah> and then we add something to the new list email that has info about it
22:39  * micah waves at chrisc
22:39 <@micah> sound good?
22:40 -!- geneX [irc at localhost] has left #meeting []
22:40 -!- ski is now known as ZZZki
22:40 <@Alster> sounds good to me
22:41 <@Alster> but didn't we say we won't force people to sign up for the newsletter?
22:41 <@Alster> in tis case we won't reach all of them
22:41 <@micah> ok, I can take care of putting together the draft of the listwork newsletter and sending it out to everyone to approve, if someone can setup the list-admins mailing list and tweak the newlist script so it send something out
22:42 <@micah> Alster: we send out the newsletter to all the list admins, in the newsletter is information about joining the list-admins mailing list
22:42 <@micah> they aren't forced to join that list
22:42 <@Alster> oh i thought the newsletter was a mailing list as well
22:43 <@micah> no, it is just an update on what has been going on
22:43 <@Alster> well but wouldn't that make sense to have a mailing list for one way communication for that?
22:44 <@micah> it would be just one mass mailing to the current list admins
22:44 <@mtoups> well didn't we force-subscribe all admins to imc-tech-announce anyway?
22:44 <@Alster> which automatically (un)subscribes all $listname-owner addresses
22:44 <@micah> mtoups: yeah, but i am not so sure that was a good idea
22:44 <@mtoups> there is a difference between opting people in to an announce list vs. a discussion list
22:44 <@micah> alster: ?
22:45 <@micah> mtoups: so are you suggesting we subscribe all list admins to imc-tech-announce and send the newsletter to there?
22:46 <@mtoups> well we'd only have to subscribe the few that have been added in the last couple months, and imc-tech-announce needs to be used anyway
22:46 <@mtoups> so i see it is a decent option, yeah
22:46 <@micah> ok, I'm cool with that
22:46 <@Alster> what else is sent via this tech announce list?
22:46 <@micah> as I floated before... I'll write the newsletter if someone deals with that part :)
22:46 <@micah> alster: so far nothing
22:46 <@Alster> wouldnt there be much content uninteresting for admins?
22:46 <@Alster> ok
22:47 <@mtoups> micah: ok i'll work on getting it sent once we've got something good written up
22:47 <@mtoups> alster: so far imc-tech-announce has not been used much, but we decided it was necessary when we took sarai down to be migrated and a lot of people were upset because they didn't hear about the plan ahead of time
22:48 <@Alster> i see
22:48 <@micah> so there is a problem with imc-tech-announce
22:48 <@mtoups> but yeah it was supposed to be generalized into general important server announcements and stuff
22:49 <@Alster> ...which may not be interesting to mailing list admins
22:49 <@micah> if we subscribe all the current admins to the list, then we send something out, and a handful of other people subscribe themselves to the list, then we decide it is time to send something out again, how do we resolve the current subscription list with new admins, and ones that have gone and the ones that have added themselves?
22:49 <@micah> Alster: i think we were hoping that it would get to people who could then send it on to their lists, if they thought it appropriate, or bring it to their local IMC
22:49 <@micah> it would be better if we sent things like that to local IMC tech contacts, or included them in the list
22:50 <@Alster> last one would be appropriate i think
22:50 <@mtoups> yeah, hmmm, get subscribers from the contact db, there's an idea
22:51 <@micah> ok lets do that then
22:51 <@micah> we put the tech contacts from the contact db into imc-tech-announce, we send out the listwork newsletter to all list admins AND the imc-tech-announce list, and to imc-summaries
22:51 <@Alster> i guess the contact db data is not really very up to date. i try to get someone give me an account for updating for three weeks now
22:52 -!- Zapata [~bla at localhost] has joined #meeting
22:52 <@Alster> but nevertheless it's prolly still the best data source available
22:52 <@micah> who manages the contactdb?
22:52 <@micah> isnt it mark burdett?
22:52 <@mtoups> i think so
22:52 <@Alster> yeah
22:53 <@mtoups> pseudopunk can create accounts too i think
22:53 <@Alster> and imc-commwork
22:53 <@mtoups> and maybe brian too
22:53 <@micah> yeah, I know they've been a little swamped with the imc SF split thing
22:53 <@micah> ok, well, lets do that ok?
22:53 <@micah> alster: keep bugging people :)
22:53  * Alster votes yes
22:53  * Alster looooves buggin people
22:54 <@micah> micah will write up the draft listwork newsletter, mtoups will pull in the imc-tech-announce list, alster will put together text for adding something to the new list email, and... yeah
22:54 <@mtoups> we can all add to the draft newsletter too i think
22:54 <@micah> yeah
22:55 <@micah> I wanted to go over the topics I have so far, and see if anyone has anymore
22:55 <@Alster> i already started writing a draft for that
22:55 <@micah> then I will put it together and send it to listwork for comments
22:55 <@mtoups> right on
22:55 <@micah> alster: EVEN BETTER
22:55 <@micah> :)
22:55 <@mtoups> should we get it translated?
22:55 <@Alster> i'll send it to you micah
22:55 <@micah> alster: you want to put together the draft?
22:55 <@micah> alster: why don't you keep it :)
22:55 <@Alster> hehe
22:55 <@Alster> ok
22:55 <@Alster> i'll do it
22:56 <@micah> I am too busy to do it, I was just going to because I didn't think anyone would :)
22:56 <@micah> great
22:56 <@micah> ok, this is what we have so far for it
22:56 <@micah> (I've added a couple things)
22:56 <@mtoups> send it to listwork and we can start adding on to it
22:56 <@Alster> ok
22:56 <@micah> - what is listwork, what we do, how we can help, newlist, RT, etc.
22:56 <@micah> - list admins mailing list
22:56 <@micah> - outage information
22:56 <@mtoups> i'm much better at working on drafts than starting from scratch
22:56 <@micah> - heroes of outage
22:56 <@micah> - URIs fixed (newsarai, working on persistance)
22:56 <@micah> - new listworkers
22:56 <@micah> - spam purging results (and future direction)
22:56 <@micah> - jb seach engine
22:56 <@micah> - lists.indy.org/$listname working
22:56 <@micah> - list admins list
22:57 <@micah> ok, take list admins list off of the bottom :)
22:57 <@mtoups> heh
22:58 <@micah> ok, so yeah
22:58 <@micah> we have:
22:58 <@micah> - lists requests
22:58 <@micah> - new listworkers
22:58 <@micah> - spam
22:58 <@micah> - FAQ
22:58 <@micah> left
22:58 <@micah> I am pretty wiped myself, but these look pretty quick
22:59 <@Alster> sorry
22:59 <@Alster> can we go on with theis last topic for a minute
23:00 <@Alster> i wondered how we act if we receive bounces for this mailing list admin newsletter 
23:00 <@Alster> do we try again? do we kill the lists? do we put in a different admin? how do we find one? etc.
23:00 <@mtoups> well if that is sent to a list then the list is going to handle the bounces automatically within mailman
23:01 <@mtoups> but that's a good question as far as dealing with defunct lists or defunct admin
23:01 <@Alster> is there a guideline for this process already?
23:01 <@micah> mtoups: yeah but it is also being sent to all list admins, if they are members of imc-tech-announce or not
23:01 <@Alster> i think we need one
23:02 <@micah> one what?
23:02 <@mtoups> i don't think there is one
23:02 <@micah> oh guideline
23:02 <@Alster> i think we need a guideline for the process of cleaning up lists, replacing administrators etc
23:03 <@Alster> maybe add this as a new topic in the end of the agenda
23:03 -!- bunny [~bunny at 82-41-74-204.cable.ubr10.edin.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #meeting
23:03 <@mtoups> well i'm not sure if it is easily process-ified, really we just need to make contact and ask the people involved (either admins or list members) what we can do to help, make suggtestions, and if there is no reply at all and no activity on the list, then remove the list (perhaps archive the members/config elsewhere)
23:04 <@mtoups> one thing to help with this would be this listwork FAQ i hear talk of
23:04 <@micah> hey guys, I've got to go, I'm totally I/O bound and CPU thrashed
23:05 <@mtoups> because that way we don't have to explain to each admin "so why do i have to approve/discard posts?" or "how to i make an announce-only list?"
23:05 <@mtoups> micah: heh.  no prob, take care
23:05 <@micah> keep talking, I've just got to skip out
23:06 <@Alster> by micah
23:06 <@Alster> had a phone call, sorry
23:07 <@mtoups> ok
23:07 <@mtoups> so alster you are going to send your draft newsletter to micah/listwork?
23:07 <@Alster> well the listwork faq would be a place to have this noted down but the general process (and i'm not only talking of the newsletter now) of the decsionmaking should probably discussed
23:08 <@Alster> i'll send it to listwork
23:08 <@mtoups> well what problems/questions do you see about the list cleanup process?
23:09 <@Alster> ok, i'll write it up:
23:09 <@Alster> if twe receive a bounce from the admin address or if we get aware he does not read the held mail
23:10 <@Alster> then we will probablya try to find somebody else to do his job
23:10 <@Alster> but how fast do we do that? will we try to reach him in other ways before we do it
23:10 <@Alster> whom will be the new list admin, i mean how do we find one
23:11 <@mtoups> right i think making contact and asking is best
23:11 <@Alster> when is a list decided to be dead
23:11 <@mtoups> i have tried this before with lists
23:11 <@Alster> do we try to revive dead lists
23:11 <@Alster> and so on
23:11 <@mtoups> well i think it is going to vary list by list
23:11 <@mtoups> i'm not sure how much we can predict what to do
23:12 <@Alster> i mean i would feel bad to remve a list admin and replace him by someone else b/c of a bounce i received from his address and have him knock my door a few days later for kicking him hout :)
23:12 <@mtoups> hehe
23:12 <@Alster> but maybe you're right
23:12 <@mtoups> well we can always have more than one admin for a lis
23:13 <@mtoups> and i think we should encourage this
23:13 <@Alster> yeah i think so too
23:13 <@Alster> looks like another topic for the newsletter
23:14 <@Alster> noted it down
23:14 <@Alster> soo, next topic?
23:14 <@mtoups> either way once we open the lines of communication between listwork and list admins, we'll be making progress
23:14 <@Alster> sure
23:14 <@mtoups> if we just keep listwork cc'd then the rest of us can weigh in/help
23:15 <@mtoups> next topic was "lists requests" i think
23:15 <@mtoups> i'm not too sure what this means, rt maybe?
23:15 <@Alster> tw are we two the only ones left in here?
23:15 <@Alster> s/tw/btw
23:15 <@mtoups> micah gone, epsas gone, brian gone, chris gone, zapata/amino/bunny never spoke up to begin with
23:15 <@mtoups> so, *shrug*
23:16 < bunny> hi
23:16 <@mtoups> hi bunny
23:16 <@Alster> wow, a bunny
23:16 < Zapata> hey
23:16 < bunny> just observing like a poet
23:16 < Zapata> I'm only lurking, sorry
23:16 <@mtoups> lurking is ok :)
23:16 < bunny> btw for those that done know my real name is micah
23:16 <@Alster> the lurker topic is already over, sorry Zapata
23:17 <@Alster> bunny hehe
23:17 < bunny> which I think has lead to some getting mixed up when they find this out
23:17 < bunny> though I do imc stuff just as space bunny
23:17 <@Alster> ok, for the agenda, can't say what "lists requests" means either
23:17 < bunny> http://j12.org/sb/
23:17 <@mtoups> ok so do people have things to say about RT or "lists requests"?
23:17 <@mtoups> ok
23:17 <@mtoups> well let's move on then
23:18 <@mtoups> new listworkers
23:18 <@mtoups> always a good item
23:18  * Alster points at himself
23:18 <@mtoups> yeah
23:18 <@Alster> hello everyone
23:18 <@Alster> i'm tina, 17, from germany and want to chat
23:18 <@mtoups> so how has it gone as a new listworker?  what do we need to do to make things better for new listworkers?
23:19 <@Alster> j/k ;)
23:19 <@Alster> hmm
23:19 <@Alster> i don't think there's too much to be improved
23:19 <@mtoups> ok
23:19 <@Alster> you did your educational jobs quite well :)
23:19 <@mtoups> well i guess we have chris on board too
23:20 <@Alster> one thing maybe
23:20 <@Alster> i wasn't aware of the existance of the listwork how-to
23:20 <@mtoups> alster i think you have done a good job of speaking up and asking questions and taking initiative
23:20 <@Alster> until a week from now
23:20 <@mtoups> ahh ok
23:20 <@mtoups> well some of it is out of date
23:20 <@Alster> thanks :)
23:21 <@Alster> yeah but sometimes it's better to have some out of date infor than having none at all :)
23:21 <@Alster> so in future we should point people to this faq
23:21 <@mtoups> true
23:21 <@Alster> of course it's also my fault
23:21 <@Alster> as it's linked up on sysadmin
23:21 <@Alster> on the wiki
23:21 <@mtoups> well we do need to utilize that better
23:21 <@mtoups> you are right
23:22 <@Alster> yeah updating stuff a bit would be helpful
23:22 <@Alster> but we just did that
23:24 <@mtoups> ok i see
23:24 <@mtoups> awesome
23:24 <@mtoups> so, ok, next topic is spam
23:24 <@mtoups> and i have a lot to say about that as always
23:24 <@Alster> i'm sure i'll have a lot to add
23:24 <@mtoups> i'm always hesitant to change too much unilaterally without talking it over with others
23:24 <@Alster> :)
23:25 <@Alster> doesn't seem like there's too many to discuss it with here
23:25 <@mtoups> well anyway so the most recent thing was that now spamassassin is checking mails against certain blacklists and other database type things
23:25 <@Alster> <--- arcastic pessimist
23:25 <@mtoups> whereas before it was doing only local checks
23:25 <@mtoups> (since that's faster)
23:25 <@Alster> <--- sarcastic pessimist
23:25 <@mtoups> oh well, ones better than none :)
23:26 <@mtoups> anyway i figured out how to make spamassassin not too slow and still do the network stuff
23:26 <@mtoups> so now we use it
23:26 <@mtoups> but
23:26 <@mtoups> because our threshold is so low we get false positives
23:26 <@mtoups> i don't think its such a big deal to use the admin interface to deal with those, ie approve them and discard the real spam
23:27 <@Alster> i'm not sure how mail which is identified as spam by the filters is treated. can you give me a heads up on this
23:27 < bunny> I am happy with low threashold with holding set up
23:27 <@mtoups> the main thing is that as long as false positives stay below the discard threshold we're ok, i think
23:27 <@mtoups> yes alster, and really we need to put this into the FAQ so people know
23:27 <@mtoups> because some people think all spam is held for moderation and that they shouldn't have to do so much moderation, which is understandable
23:28 <@Alster> i'm asking for both mailman related mail and non-mailing lists but just general email
23:28 <@mtoups> ok well first off spamassassin is called by mailman so mail that doesn't go through mailman doesn't go through spamassassin (we could use procmail to do this on a per-alias basis though)
23:28 <@Alster> i assume a lot of mail is not shown in the held mail but automatically discarded, right?
23:29 <@mtoups> and as you know spamassassin assigns mails a value based on how "spammy" it is
23:29 <@mtoups> right, so there are two thresholds in /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py
23:29 <@mtoups> SPAMASSASSIN_DISCARD_SCORE = 5.6
23:29 <@mtoups> SPAMASSASSIN_HOLD_SCORE = 3
23:29 <@Alster> ok
23:29 <@Alster> assumed it's done that way
23:29 <@mtoups> yeah
23:30 <@mtoups> so the vast majority of spam does NOT have to be moderated
23:30 <@Alster> is there a need to change those values?
23:30 <@mtoups> alster, we have changed them quite a bit
23:30 <@mtoups> they began at 5 and 10
23:31 <@mtoups> however... see a lot of things happened because this spring the old sarai machine got very unstable and could not handle the load of running spamassassin
23:31 <@mtoups> so for a while we had NO spamassassin and most lists went members-only
23:31 <@mtoups> and so a lot still are
23:31 <@Alster> can you estimate how much mail is given rates 0 to 3 compared to the held mail?
23:31 <@mtoups> alster yes, everything gets logged in /var/log/mail.log and /var/log/mailman
23:32 <@Alster> can you just say like 80:20 or so
23:32 <@mtoups> and i have a script which can parse the logs and generate stats
23:32 <@mtoups> i used to psot stats to listwork
23:32 <@Alster> oh that'd be interesting!
23:32 <@mtoups> speaking of status
23:32 <@mtoups> do you know about:
23:33 <@mtoups> http://sarai.indymedia.org/cgi-bin/mailgraph.cgi
23:33 <@Alster> someone, maybe you, pointed at this url some das ago b/c of the bounces
23:34 <@Alster> but i din't know of it before
23:34 <@Alster> was just accidentially
23:34 <@Alster> another thing which could be told to new listworkers
23:36 <@Alster> i assume the "SPAM" index marks the emails assigned a value of 0 to 3?
23:36 <@mtoups> oh well the higher the value the more spammy a mail is
23:36 <@Alster> ummmh higher than 5.6 i mean
23:37 <@mtoups> ok well... so actually we block some spam before it even gets to mailman/spamassassin
23:37 <@mtoups> because postfix uses some DNSBL's (i think micah posted about this recently)
23:37 <@mtoups> so i think that is what that graph is considering
23:37 <@mtoups> stats:
23:37 <@mtoups> from Oct 12 06:50:03 to Oct 18 15:31:39
23:37 <@mtoups> Total number of emails processed by the spam filter : 7794
23:37 <@mtoups> Number of spams                         :       675 (  8.66%)
23:37 <@mtoups> Number of clean messages                :      7119 ( 91.34%)
23:37 <@mtoups> Average message analysis time           :      4.13 seconds
23:37 <@mtoups> Average spam analysis time              :      3.65 seconds
23:37 <@mtoups> Average clean message analysis time     :      4.93 seconds
23:37 <@mtoups> Average message score                   :      8.29
23:37 <@mtoups> Average spam score                      :     13.47
23:37 <@mtoups> Average clean message score             :     -0.25
23:38 <@mtoups> Total spam volume                       :        82 Mbytes
23:38 <@mtoups> Total clean volume                      :       112 Mbytes
23:38 <@mtoups> i'm actually not sure if this script is so accurate now though
23:38 <@mtoups> because it may not be used to spamassassin being called by mailman instead of by an MTA
23:38 <@Alster> i see
23:39 <@Alster> well 9 percent spam can't be true for sure
23:39 <@Alster> must be much more overall
23:39 <@mtoups> yeah
23:39 <@mtoups> i think that script sucks
23:39 <@mtoups> my grepping show
23:39 <@mtoups> shows
23:39 <@mtoups> spam count: 11826
23:39 <@mtoups> clean count: 7166
23:39 <@mtoups> and that's AFTER spam makes it past postfix's DNSBLs
23:40 <@mtoups> because postfix straight up rejects mail from certain spammer IP addresses
23:41 <@Alster> my mailbox says i got one third of all mails coming in from indymedia (and from spammers directly) which is spam
23:41 <@Alster> in other words: internet got a spam problem. but that's old news
23:41 <@Alster> :)
23:42 <@Alster> so what dd we mean to discuss for this topic?
23:42 <@Alster> or was it just about information?
23:43 <@Alster> "Mr Toups, to the railway department please."
23:44 <@mtoups> heh
23:46 <@Alster> you're busy?
23:47 <@mtoups> yeah phone, hang on
23:48 <@Alster> ok, i'll check my irc logs in the meanwhile
23:56 <@Alster> i was wrong about having chatted with ansti
23:56 <@Alster> i just sent him a memo via memoserv
23:57 <@Alster> maybe he'll read that
23:59 <@mtoups> cool
- --- Day changed Sun Oct 19 2003
00:03 <@mtoups> anyway
00:03 <@mtoups> i gotta run
00:03 <@mtoups> talk to you in a bit, glad we got through stuff todya
00:04 <@Alster> yeah i think we covered pretty much
00:04 <@Alster> of the agenda
00:05 <@Alster> so we declare the meeting finished
00:19 -!- luis [~email at cbl-233-3.wb.bl.ufmg.br] has joined #meeting
00:21 <@Alster> hey luis
00:21 <@Alster> you're a bit too late
00:21 <@Alster> we've finished
00:26 < luis> heh, i know. im sorry, but it wasnt reallt my fault. i went through a cirurgy yesterday and im resting now
00:27 < luis> i ended up sleeping after lunch and only woke up now
00:27 < luis> but i hope i can read the log somewhere
00:31 < luis> have to get back to bed now
00:31 < luis> later
00:31 -!- luis [~email at cbl-233-3.wb.bl.ufmg.br] has quit [Quit: /rest]
00:32 <@Alster> oops, poor boy


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