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03:41 -!- Topic for #meeting: sysadmin/tech meeting at Sun Mar 30 22:00:00 UTC 2003
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03:42 -!- Topic for #meeting: sysadmin/tech meeting at Sun Mar 30 22:00:00 UTC 2003
03:42 -!- Topic set by ansti!irc@ [Thu Mar 27 16:15:29 2003]
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13:43 -!- Topic for #meeting: sysadmin/tech meeting at Sun Mar 30 22:00:00 UTC 2003
13:43 -!- Topic set by ansti!irc@ [Thu Mar 27 16:15:29 2003]
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17:27 <@gaba> hey, somebody?
17:27 <@gaba> wich GMT's time is 22UTC ?
17:27 <@gaba> the meeting
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19:19 -!- ansti changed the topic of #meeting to: sysadmin/tech meeting Mar 30th 21:00 UTC, 1pm PST, 4pm EST
19:55 -!- ansti changed the topic of #meeting to: sysadmin/tech meeting Mar 30th 21:00 UTC, 1pm PST, 4pm EST here
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19:57 <@ansti> hi jebba
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20:08 [@ansti] [@Zapata] [ humble] [ jebba] [ kers] [ mamede]
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20:09 <@ansti> still 3 hours until the meeting begins.
20:09 < mamede> hehehehehee
20:09 < mamede> be pacient
20:09 < mamede> ~:)
20:11 <@ansti> yes, I am ;)
20:12 < humble> has anyone wikkied up an agenda to preview or is it going to be
more organic?
20:18 <@ansti> humble: could you do this?
20:18 [Users #meeting]
20:18 [@ansti] [@Zapata] [ humble] [ jebba] [ kers] [ mamede]
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20:23 < humble> sure
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20:36 < humble> http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Sysadmin/MeetingAgenda
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21:03 < humble> I don't really know why this meeting was called so feel free to
edit, delete, change, re-order, etc.  ;-)
21:04 <@brianski> do we have a wiki?
21:04  * humble has been getting a shi!tload of spam lately, tho
21:05 < humble> brianski: http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Sysadmin/MeetingAgenda
21:06 <@brianski> that works, i think the main thing we need to talk about is sarai
21:06 <@brianski> hi ansti, are you going to make it to 2100?
21:13 <@brianski> ok, am i doing something wrong, or is 2100 UTC 3pm EST?
21:13 <@brianski> and 12:00 noon PST
21:14 < humble> this works for me: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedform.html
21:16 <@brianski> weird, i guess the website i went to has daylight savings stuff wrong
21:17 < humble> hmm...
21:32 <@Zapata> hey
21:32 <@Zapata> what is EST/PST now?
21:32 <@Zapata> right now is 7:30 pm UTC
21:35 <@brianski> 2:35 EST, 5:35 PST
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21:46 < humble> wha??
21:49 <@brianski> humble - i was saying what time it was then. which is while ago now. :-)
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22:34 [Users #meeting]
22:34 [@ansti] [@brianski] [@Zapata] [ humble] [ jebba] [ josh]
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22:41 <@ansti> brianski: where you the one who added the PST and EST timeconversion at the #tech topic?
22:42 <@brianski> nope
22:42 <@brianski> in fact i went to a site that said 2100 utc was 3pm EST. so i'm a little confused
22:42 <@ansti> mh, seems like it was micah
22:42 <@ansti> brianski: no, that's wrong.
22:42 <@brianski> so 2100 IS 4pm EST?
22:43 <@brianski> k
22:43 < josh> heh
22:43 <@Zapata> hey brianski: in which timezone are you now?
22:43 <@ansti> I'm in Europe/Germany/Berlin timezone, and here 2100 UTC is 2300
22:43 <@brianski> EST
22:43 <@Zapata> and what time is it now?
22:43 <@brianski> 3:43PM
22:43 <@Zapata> ok....
22:43 <@ansti> yes, and UTC is 2:40 now
22:43 <@Zapata> it's 8:41 UC now
22:43 <@ansti> oh, yes ;)
22:43 <@Zapata> erm...
22:43 <@brianski> plus or minus a few minutes :-)
22:43 <@Zapata> so that's 5 hours difference...
22:44 <@Zapata> so 21:00 utc = 4 pm EST
22:44 <@brianski> k, i'll have to unbookmark the site that gave me the wrong times....
22:44 <@ansti> Zapata: no
22:44 <@brianski> i wonder how many times i got the wrong time from that peice of crap...
22:44 <@Zapata> ansti:?
22:44 <@ansti> its 9 hours difference
22:44 <@ansti> fuck, you're right.
22:44 <@brianski> hehe
22:45 <@Zapata> ok...
22:45 <@Zapata> the lesson learned...
22:45 <@Zapata> no meetings in weekends with DST changes
22:45 <@Zapata> ;-)
22:45 <@brianski> as an american, i hereby demand that the entire world use Washington time (formerly known as Eastern Standard Time)
22:45 <@brianski> anyone who is awake between midnight and 6am Washington time will have war declared on them
22:45 <@Zapata> yeah... I'm waiting for an announcement by Bush about that...
22:46 <@brianski> Zapata - it's coming in a press conference later this week. rumor is it bush will also declare war on countries that have less than 3 McDonald's restaurants per 1000 people
22:49 <@Zapata> lol
22:49 <@Zapata> I live in the neighbourhood of 3 mcdonals and 2 burger kings, so I guess I'm reasonably safe...
22:49 <@Zapata> even though my city houses the international criminal court...
22:50 <@brianski> Zapata - oh the international criminal court? we're planning on announcing that all of their decisions are subject to review in the supreme court of the united states of america
22:50  * brianski breathes deeply
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22:57  * ansti is tired
22:58 <@brianski> antsy - 3 minutes till we begin :-)
22:58 <@ansti> yes ;)
22:58  * matze ansti proposed a bad meeting time for european techs ...
22:59 <@micah> :)
22:59 <@micah> shall we put together an agenda and start getting logistics out of the way?
23:00 <@ansti>  please wait a second.
23:00 <@ansti> my logger doesn't work for now.
23:00 <@micah> no problem
23:01 -!- brianski changed the topic of #meeting to: sysadmin/tech meeting Mar 30th 21:00 UTC, 1pm PST, 4pm EST here | http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Sysadmin/MeetingAgenda
23:01 <@ansti> test
23:01 <@micah> ansti: so Martin won, what do you think about that? A fellow German... :)(
23:01 -!- brianski changed the topic of #meeting to: sysadmin/tech meeting
23:01 -!- brianski changed the topic of #meeting to: sysadmin/tech meeting Mar 30th 21:00 UTC, 1pm PST, 4pm EST here | http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Sysadmin/MeetingAgenda
23:01 <@ansti> test
23:01 <@micah> ansti: so Martin won, what do you think about that? A fellow German... :)(
23:01 -!- brianski changed the topic of #meeting to: sysadmin/tech meeting Mar 30th 21:00 UTC, 1pm PST, 4pm EST here | wiki at http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Sysadmin/Meetin
23:01 -!- brianski changed the topic of #meeting to: sysadmin/tech meeting Mar 30th 21:00 UTC, 1pm PST, 4pm EST here | wiki at http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Sysadmin/Meetin
23:01 -!- brianski changed the topic of #meeting to: sysadmin/tech meeting Mar 30th 21:00 UTC, 1pm PST, 4pm EST here | http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Sysadmin/MeetingAgenda
23:01 <@brianski> weird
23:02 < josh> agendaz
23:02 < humble> hi folks
23:03 <@ansti> hi
23:03 <@ansti> brianski: hehe
23:04 <@brianski> i guess there is a limit to the length of topics?
23:05 <@brianski> anyway, if someone is logging, let's get this show on the road, for the sake of the tired europeans here
23:05 <@micah> Draft Agenda
23:05 <@micah>     * IRC: . overview of existing infrastructure . what are our needs? . solutions
23:05 <@micah>     * mailing lists . overview of current situation (sarai) . solutions
23:05 <@micah>     * misc. server check-in - 15 mins
23:05 <@micah>     * puchases & upgrades - 15 mins
23:05 <@micah>     * spam - 20 mins
23:05 <@micah>     * misc. issues - 15 mins
23:05 <@micah> I propose that as our agenda, see http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Sysadmin/MeetingAgenda for a better format :)
23:06 <@brianski> ansti - are you logging?
23:07 <@brianski> s/ansti/someone/
23:07 <@ansti> wait a second
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23:08 <@micah> humble: good point... as I thought this meeting was called as an "emergency" meeting to deal with server issues, I think we should focus on resolving those issues, and time permitting move into non-server issues like spam, and misc issues
23:08  * brianski agrees w/ micah
23:08 <@micah> So I would propose 20 minutes for each of the first two
23:08 <@Arc> i think spam ties into server issues
23:08 <@micah> I don't think spam is an emergency
23:08 <@Arc> atleast for sarai
23:08  * Arc does.
23:09 <@brianski> well, how about to the extent that spam is intertwined, we will talk about it?
23:09 <@brianski> intertwined=related
23:09  * micah twinkles
23:09  * ansti is logging now
23:10 [Users #meeting]
23:10 [@ansti] [@brianski] [@Zapata] [ jebba] [ matze ] [ occupant] 
23:10 [@Arc  ] [@micah   ] [ humble] [ josh ] [ mtoups] [ stefani ] 
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23:10 < humble> item one -let's go - time's a wastin'
23:10 <@ansti> do we want to start with introductions?
23:10 -!- mode/#meeting [+oooo josh matze mtoups stefani] by brianski
23:11 <@micah> can everyone just introduce themselves without us having to waste time on it?
23:11 < humble> ender tech in vancouver - hullooo
23:11  * brianski is brian from imc-ithaca, tech on zero.indy
23:11 <@micah> micah - from seattle, in san francisco, do imc-sysadmin work
23:11  * mtoups is matt, tech in pittsburgh
23:11  * micah can't work wiki and hates using it for interactive agenda setting
23:11  * matze is from barcelona, doing sysadmin work
23:12 < jebba> jeff@indymedia.org mainly admin ahimsa which hosts around 10 IMCs, occasionally on stallman
23:12  * ansti is global techi and working on sarai, local active at indymedia germany
23:12 <@brianski> arc, ansti, josh, occupant, stefani, Zapata?
23:13  * stefani seattle  wil be departing at 2.  
23:13  * Zapata from indy.nl, mir coders, also supporting most of the mir running imc's one way or another
23:13 <@Arc> Arc from Ithaca, currently involved in radio and video projects, do alot with the Ogg framework
23:13  * brianski scratches his head and then notes 2 seattle time is 2200 UTC
23:14 < occupant> Wayne from sfimc
23:14 [Users #meeting]
23:14 [@ansti] [@brianski] [@matze] [@mtoups ] [@Zapata] [ jebba   ] 
23:14 [@Arc  ] [@josh    ] [@micah] [@stefani] [ humble] [ occupant] 
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23:14 <@ansti> josh?
23:14 <@brianski> let's just get in to it, and let josh, Zapata, and ansti - introduce with /me
23:15 <@ansti> brianski: I did already an introduction
23:15 <@Zapata> I just did
23:15  * ansti is global techi and working on sarai, local active at indymedia germany
23:15  * Zapata from indy.nl, mir coders, also supporting most of the mir running imc's one way or another
23:16 <@ansti> so, let's start?
23:16 <@ansti> do we need a facilitator?
23:16  * micah nods
23:17  * brianski feels masochistic
23:18 <@ansti> who wants? ;)
23:18 < humble> i proposed briankski for timekepper
23:18 <@micah> brianski!
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23:18 <@brianski> okee dokee. if anyone objects, just kick my ass.
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23:19 <@brianski> so, topic one is "IRC: . overview of existing infrastructure . what are our needs? . solutions"
23:19  * micah raises hand
23:19 <@brianski> micah
23:19 <@micah> I can give an overview of what is existing
23:19  * ansti raises to
23:19  * Zapata raises hand
23:19 <@micah> Ok, currently our IRC network is composed of two servers connected via RSA
23:19 <@micah> cryptlinks, one server is located in L.A. at regenerationTV's offices on a 
23:19 <@micah> DSL link (kropotkin), the other is located up in Arcata, California on a 
23:19 <@micah> even more flaky DSL connection (judi). Judi runs services and keeps dropping 
23:19 <@micah> offline, kropotkin is the main irc.indymedia.org machine. We have wanted to 
23:19 <@micah> setup enough servers so we could do round robin and distribute people 
23:19 <@micah> around, but the connection to judi has not been reliable enough to subject 
23:19 <@micah> people to such torture.
23:19 <@micah> Kropotkin has had some really bad lag problems, ping times over 3000 
23:20 <@micah> millaseconds, and has had one or two outages in the past couple months. 
23:20 <@micah> Unfortunately, that has been unacceptable for people who depend on IRC for 
23:20  * brianski notes ansti then zapata on stack
23:20 <@micah> meetings, organizing, work, etc.
23:20 <@micah> <end>
23:20  * humble raises hand
23:20  * Arc raises
23:20 <@brianski> ansti, zapata, humble, arc
23:20 <@brianski> ansti go
23:20 <@ansti> no, it's better to listen first
23:20 <@ansti> i give to zapata
23:20 <@brianski> ok, zapata
23:20 <@Zapata> hmmm
23:21 <@Zapata> some general remarks concering needs...
23:21 <@Zapata> irc is vital imo for my indymedia work...
23:21  * brianski thanks micah for using <end> and asks others to please do the same
23:21 <@Zapata> so I wonder if there is a way to use maybe a lot of smaller machines 
23:21 <@Zapata> for thsi purpose...
23:22 <@Zapata> like people's home connections
23:22 <@Zapata> is this an option?
23:22 <@Zapata> <end>
23:22 <@brianski> humble
23:22  * micah raises hand
23:22 <@brianski> micah - direct response?
23:22  * micah nods
23:22 <@brianski> ok, micah go ahead, then humble and arc. ansti, reraise if you want to be back on the stack
23:23 <@micah> the problem with using people's home connections is the latency and lag, people could be directed via round robin to a number of irc setups, that were all linked, but communication would be degraded if we didn't have servers which were connected on reliable connections
23:23 <@micah> <end>
23:23 <@brianski> humble?
23:23 < humble> we installed ircd on ender but don't know how to configure it
23:24 < humble> shiva is underultilized at the moment and could help
23:24 < humble> </end>
23:24 <@brianski> arc?
23:24  * micah notes that maybe we should talk about solutions after needs?
23:24  * ansti nods
23:24  * humble raises hand
23:24  * rabble raises his hand
23:24  * brianski micah - seems to me we have that "IRC: . overview of existing infrastructure . what are our needs? . solutions"
23:25 <@Arc> I think this discussion is going to have to be tabled because it will become far too lengthy.  one of the problems with irc.indy is it was setup by a single individual without discussion or consensus one way or another, and decidions are still being made by one or two people that effect everyone that use it (ie, to enable services, and which services to use, how they're used, etc)
23:25  * micah raises hand
23:26 <@brianski> after arc, humble then rabble then micah (please note when you raise hand if you have a direct response)
23:26 -!- ianb [~ianb@dsl081-228-065.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #meeting
23:26 <@Arc> there was alot of discussion about setting up a large irc-net, with 4 or 5 servers. one problem that hasnt been resolved is which ircd to use, they're all different and imply different rules on users (ie, to support modeless channels or not, power of ircops, etc)
23:26  * micah wanted to directly respond to arc
23:27 <@brianski> micah, humble - ok if we go to rabble to avoid back and forth exchange, and then come back to you if rabble doesn't cover what you want to say?
23:27 < humble> our need is in the technical realm... someone (or two) to manage it
23:27 < humble> </end>
23:27 <@Arc> another problem becomes that so far the subgroup making these decidions is exclusive to a majority of the people who depend on the service, thus acting against the princials of indymedia
23:27 <@Arc> <end>
23:27 <@micah> I don't believe that what arc is talking about is relevant here, what is relevant is the vital communication network of the IMC based on server and bandwidth problems. Our current server and bandwidth problems with regards to IRC are critical and need to be solved, discussion about what ircd to use as an alternative to the existing one should be dealt with in the IRC group and not at this meeting which is focused on emergency issues with relation to our existing netw
23:28 <@brianski> ok, since micah jumped, rabble is next :-)
23:28 <@micah> oh sorry I htought you were indicating I should og
23:28 <@micah> go
23:28  * micah closes mouth
23:28 <@rabble> what is the bandwidth use for the irc servers? Protest.net's yada server is right now on a very fast very low latency connection but it's donated so i don't want to volunteer it if this is more than 30 or 40 k a second we're talking about (yada get's about 200k a second with protest.net traffic)  I'd also have to get kellan and Phaed's ok first. can somebody answer that question?  </end>
23:28  * micah has direct response to rabble
23:28  * brianski micah no problem
23:28 <@brianski> micah, go ahead
23:28 <@micah> bandwidth use for irc is very minimal and can be seen here: http://riseup.net/mrtg/kropotkin.indymedia.org_2.html
23:28  * brianski asks that we please keep discussion about what happened in the past to a minimum
23:28 <@micah> <end>
23:29  * Arc raises
23:29 <@brianski> arc?
23:29 <@rabble> and ram?
23:30  * micah raises hand
23:30 <@brianski> micah, go ahead, then arc.
23:31  * ansti would like to know what are the tasks for judi and kropotkin now.
23:31 <@ansti> (except of judi=ircd+services and kropotkin=ircd)
23:32  * rabble has an answer for judi
23:32 <@micah> So, on this topic "what are our needs" I concur with Zapata that IRC is a vital element of our communications infrastructure, it should be treated as such. I would propose that we have multiple IRC servers on demonstratably reliable connections, on decent machines. Our current setup doesn't work for people. I would think our needs are reliable uptime, low latency bandwidth.
23:32 <@micah> <end>
23:32 <@brianski> arc. 
23:32 <@Arc> I disagree with micah, those issues are very relevent here. months ago, when that big confrontation went down, I instituted a block on any new IRC server on the net or change in irc services until a meeting, citing the lack of consensus process and heirarchal/exclusive decidion making with it. that block continues to this day, and little effort has been put into addressing those issues.
23:32 <@brianski> then rabble
23:32  * humble wonders if this is really the Arc that contributes to IMC or some kind of .gov disruptor-bot ;-)
23:33  * brianski smacks humble with a large trout :-)
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23:33  * micah raises hand with a giant sigh
23:33 -!- mode/#meeting [+o earthman] by ansti
23:33  * humble mopes
23:33 <@brianski> arc - done?
23:33 <@Arc> I agree that IRC is an important communication tool, and don't want to see it continue to grow in it's current way.  The rules which govern such an important communication method must be governed the same as any other part of Indymedia.
23:33 <@Arc> <end>
23:33  * brianski apologizes to humble, i had to make an exmple of you :-)
23:34 <@brianski> rabble, then micah
23:34 <@rabble> Judi is located at the peace and justice center in arcata, ca. It hosts ircd, a few local websites (which intails having zope installed), and that is about it. It's a beefy.. err tofuie, box, dual 800mhz 512 megs of ram, currently for example the load is 0.00 0.00 0.00
23:34 <@rabble> end
23:34 <@brianski> micah?
23:34 < humble> rubs his head looking mournful ;-)
23:34 <@rabble> oh it's on a sdsl connection
23:34  * earthman raises
23:34 <@rabble> it has ups, but hte power tends to go out soemtimes or pacbel fucks up
23:34 <@rabble> end
23:34  * brianski smacks rabble for talking after end :-)
23:35 <@brianski> micah, then earthman
23:35  * brianski asks earthman, Administrator_, ianb to introduce briefly using /me
23:36  * earthman unraises (answered in /topic)
23:36 <@micah> I would like to propose that we do not deal with the issues that Arc is raising here, as they are irrelevant to this discussion, they should be dealt with in the IRCd working group, we should deal with solidifying the infrastructure, IRCd can talk about what irc daemons to run in the future, but our problem is not IRCd's problem. 
23:36 <@micah> <end>
23:36  * matze agrees
23:36  * Arc raises in response
23:36  * earthman reraises
23:37 <@brianski> arc, go ahead... then earthman
23:37  * brianski notes we're 30 minutes in to this meeting
23:37  * humble thirds micah
23:37  * ansti agrees to micah 
23:37 <@Arc> it very much is this issue. if you're talking about setting up another ircd on another server or in any way expanding the current network, my previous block still applies and will continue to apply.
23:37  * rabble wagles his fingers in agreement with micah
23:37 <@Arc> <end>
23:38 <@brianski> if i can interject...
23:38  * micah notes that arc's block was for the IRCd group, not the imc-sysadmin or imc-tech group
23:38  * micah raises hand
23:38 <@brianski> it seems that micah, matze, humble, ansti, and rabble don't want to talk about software, but rather getting hardware going. arc seems to want to talk about software, any ideas for resolving this conflict? <end>
23:38 <@brianski> earthman then micah
23:39  * earthman is earthman from ithaca.indy (for brianski's request)
23:39 <@earthman> continuring with comment now...
23:39  * Arc raises
23:39 <@earthman> i suspct i also agree with micah on this, as far as i've seen coming in late.  *but* ... "IRC" *is* on the agenda somewho.  clarification please on what that agenda point is?
23:40 <@earthman> s/who/how/
23:40 <@earthman> (how do i say "someone answert that?")
23:41 <@earthman> brianski: youu seem to be facilitating this, can you?
23:41 <@brianski> earthman - that works....
23:42 <@brianski> earthman - my impression is that the topic is vague, and since i'm seeing a lot of disagreement over irc software and historical issues, i'd like to propose we restrict ourselves to talk about potentially adding a new ircd somewhere with a more reliable connection
23:42 <@brianski> <end>
23:42 <@brianski> earthman - do you have more?
23:42  * humble raises
23:42 <@earthman> it's on the agenda, right wrong or otherwise it got there, and i'll assume those here agreed to the agenda.  i think what i've seen arc adrerssing does belong in ircd not ehre, but ... it's on the agenda, ,so i'll say that and <end>
23:42  * brianski notes stack = micah then arc then humble
23:43 <@brianski> micah, go ahead
23:44 <@micah> I refuse to allow one person to undermine the vital communications network of the entire IMC network with a "block" that he made in a pissing match in a sub-working-group. I find this highly disrupive and selfish. I would like to propose Arc either stand-aside from this discussion and let us continue with our meeting in the interests of the IMC as a whole. I put a proposal on the table and have 5 (including myself) people have agreed with it, possibly 7 with wat bria
23:44 -!- Administrator_ is now known as stefani
23:44 <@micah> I am sorry, but I am at my ropes end here<end>
23:45 <@brianski> ok, arc go ahead. everyone please speak in I statements as much as is possible :-)
23:45 <@brianski> humble is next
23:45 <@Arc> It's not about a pissing contest, it's about a working group acting against the principals of indymedia.
23:46 <@Arc> I'll note that, in that whole dispute, my access to both judi and krop was disabled anonymously by someone, who never came forward and said they had done so, everyone denies doing so, and nobody has re-established it. this is a process issue that is not going to be resolved by you simply moving the discussion to another group.
23:46 <@micah> My proposals stand
23:46  * rabble raises his hand
23:46 <@Arc> my block stands until these issues are resolved, and this is the wrong place to do it.
23:46 <@Arc> move to table.
23:46 <@Arc> <end>
23:46 <@brianski> humble then rabble
23:46 -!- RHATTO [irc@] has joined #meeting
23:46  * ansti is very interested in a solution at the arc-jb and arc-micah problems
23:47 < humble> I was called to an emergency tech meeting ostensibly to come up with solutions to critical technical issues...
23:47 < humble> that's why I'm here...
23:47  * brianski steps out of his facilitator shoes to twinkle at ansti
23:47  * micah twinkles
23:47 < humble> If Arc wants to call an emergency meeting to discuss process, that's his right...
23:47 <@ansti> brianski: no, thanks ;)
23:48 < humble> (don't bother sending me an invite tho)
23:48  * brianski steps back in to his facilitator shoes to throw a DVD at ansti
23:48 < humble> Can we please, please, PLEASE get on with the important task of fixing some critical IMC problems... PLEASE!!!
23:48 < humble> </end>
23:48 <@brianski> ok, rabble, then let's pause and see what we can do
23:49 <@rabble> look, i block arc's proposal that we stop the progress of this meeting and only talk about his issue.  We have a lot of issues to cover and to demand that we revisit an issue right now instead of setting up the infrastructure we need to cover the war/anti-war protests  then we are making a fundamental mistake.  <end>
23:49  * ansti runs away and throws back
23:49  * Arc raises in response
23:50 <@brianski> ok, arc, i'd like to ask that you hang on a second
23:50  * micah raises
23:50 <@brianski> can we have someone relatively neutral to this debate suggest a way to go forward?
23:50  * ansti would like to talk about points instead of talking about how to talk
23:50 <@earthman> brianski: can this agenda item be moved to the end of the agenda?  would that suffice?
23:50  * ansti raises
23:51  * jebba how about arc makes a /technical/ proposal, and if anyone else has /technical/ ideas, they can state them...
23:51 <@brianski> ok, i'm going to bump ansti up the stack
23:51 <@brianski> then micah and arc
23:51 <@brianski> err, arc and micah (sorry)
23:51 <@micah> The topic, "what are our needs" with relation to IRC I think is relevant here. I think that we should determine if having working IRC is more important than not. I think having working IRC is more important and think it is impossible to have this with Arc's block. <end>
23:51 <@micah> sorry
23:51 <@ansti> I think we should talk about the hardware solutions.
23:51 <@ansti> not about software.
23:51 <@ansti> we should talk about how many and which servers for irc etc.
23:52 <@micah> the current issue is emergency problems with relation to hardware and bandwidth, not software
23:52 <@ansti> which software can be discussed in ircd meetings
23:52 <@micah> err, crap, sorry, I <ended> /me apoligzies
23:52 <@ansti> <end>
23:52  * brianski notes he chose a bad day to stop sniffing glue
23:52 <@brianski> how do people feel about ansti's proposal?
23:52 <@brianski> arc, go ahead
23:53 <@Arc> I dont want to discuss the ircd issues here, it's the wrong place for it. i've repeatedly moved to table this entire discussion, it's pointless to discuss it. time to move on.  it's an ircd issue, ircd needs to have a meeting and spend time to resolve these issues. again, move to table.
23:53 <@Arc> <end>
23:53  * ansti raises
23:53 <@brianski> alright, any objections to us going on to mail stuff and come back to irc stuff later?
23:53 <@brianski> ansti
23:53  * earthman raises to offer a second on the move to table
23:53 <@ansti> what about this:
23:54 <@ansti> 1 what do we have/ tasks of judi and kropotkin
23:54  * micah objects, we need to discuss possible solutions
23:54 <@ansti> 2 what are the current problems
23:54 <@ansti> 3 how to solve these
23:54 <@ansti> <end>
23:54  * mtoups raise
23:54 <@brianski> mtoups
23:54  * rabble raises
23:54 <@mtoups> quickly i'll point out just in case that kropotkin also hosts docs.indy
23:55 <@mtoups> and... did any one answer RAM requirements for an ircd?
23:55 <@mtoups> pittsburgh has bandwidth but weak hardware
23:55 <@mtoups> <end>
23:55  * brianski notes if i dropped anyone of the stack, i'm sorry, it's a little hectic, and i'm trying to get people who aren't talking much a chance to speak
23:55 <@brianski> mtoups, then rabble
23:55  * mtoups is done
23:55 <@brianski> err duh
23:55  * micah raises hand
23:55 <@brianski> rabble
23:55 <@brianski> then micah
23:55 <@rabble> can we figure out what needs to be done to add a third or forth server to our current setup before we talk about switching ircd software at some future date
23:55  * Arc raises
23:55 <@Arc> (in response)
23:56 <@brianski> briefly, please, arc.
23:56 <@rabble> and i agree, if we're talking about the reliablity of kropotkin we need to know that docs.indy is on there and it's an important resource too
23:56 <@brianski> :-)
23:56 <@rabble> end
23:56  * micah lowers hand
23:56  * stefani is heading out to the streets now.
23:57 <@Arc> Again, my block was for the changing of services or adding any new server until consensus is reached to these issues. no consensus for ircd has ever been reached, we've never had any meetings, and these problems will continue until people who are refusing to work together sit together in a meeting and work things out in a major way.
23:57 <@Arc> again move to table.
23:57 <@Arc> <end>
23:57 -!- stefani [irc@] has quit [Quit: Client Exiting]
23:58 <@brianski> ok, 
23:58  * micah raises hand
23:58 <@brianski> one motion to table, another to just talk about hardware and not software. can we consense on one or the other?
23:58 <@brianski> micah go ahead
23:58  * ansti thinks that the ircd discussion is a bit tireing atm.
23:58 <@brianski> ok, if anyone wants to continue the irc conversation, please /raise now
23:59 <@earthman> brianski: "which"? (soft/hardware?)
23:59  * humble raises
23:59  * brianski rephrases...
23:59 <@brianski> ok, if anyone wants to continue the conversation about irc and not move on to mail, please /raise now
23:59 <@brianski> micah - the floor is yours...
23:59 <@brianski> humble is next
23:59  * humble raises (quick)
--- Log closed Mon Mar 31 00:00:01 2003
--- Log opened Mon Mar 31 00:00:01 2003
--- Day changed Mon Mar 31 2003
00:00 <@brianski> humble go ahead
00:00 <@micah> Arc's block has nothing to do with imc-sysadmin, which I thought this meeting is composed of. If we are unable to make our IRC network work and move on to dealing with our mailing lists because of a block in a subgroup that isn't this group, then we need to evaluate if that block applies to us in relation to these emergencies. 
00:00 < humble> offer of shiva still stands... let me know (100mb connection, celeron 500, woody, 400 megs ram)
00:01 <@brianski> humble, micah, done?
00:01 <@micah> It should also be noted that the decision making policy of imc-tech is probably unknown to people here. <end>
00:01  * brianski raises
00:01 < humble> only other service is Darwin Streaming server
00:01 < humble> </end>
00:01 <@brianski> agreed w/ micah, however, since this is a sort of "emergency" meeting, can we try to make some progress on real issues (such as sarai problems) before discussing procedural things which might not interest people who are here because of the "emergency" status?
00:02  * Arc raises
00:02 <@brianski> arc
00:02  * micah notes that irc network problems are emergencies, we have solid solutions, but are unable to move on them because of, what?
00:02 <@Arc> I highly challenge this whole notion that there's even an emergency with ircd. we were having more problems when the whole ircd problem came about, and my actions to solve the emergency are what started this whole thing.
00:02  * Zapata raises
00:03 <@Arc> many people didnt feel, then, that it was an emergency at all
00:03 <@Arc> IRC was breaking every 8-10 hours regularly
00:03 <@Arc> but we're having no problem meeting on here right now, nor were there any concerns that irc would be down during the meeting.
00:04  * micah raises hand
00:04 <@brianski> arc, done?
00:04 <@Arc> <end>
00:04 <@brianski> ok, 
00:04 <@brianski> alright people, please avoid making accusations, even if they *are* true, they do not help us here.
00:04 <@brianski> zapata then micah. /me notes it's been 30 minutes since we made anything resembling progress on the IRC issues.
00:04  * Arc repeats move to table.
00:05 <@Zapata> I strongly urge Arc to find a more productive way to have his problems resolved...
00:05 <@brianski> arc - yes, we are well aware of your movement. thank you.
00:05 <@Zapata> we're getting nowhere this way...
00:05 <@Zapata> <end>
00:05  * brianski apologizes for being snippy :-)
00:05 <@brianski> micah
00:06 <@micah> please go ahead with someone else
00:06 <@micah> and come back to me
00:06  * ansti raises
00:06 <@brianski> ansti
00:06 <@ansti> why does ircd break so often.
00:06 <@ansti> do we have more stable servers?
00:07 <@ansti> I think 2-3 ircd servers are enough for now.
00:07 <@ansti> just to solve this important problem.
00:07 <@brianski> ansti - <end> ?
00:07 <@ansti> we have to fight against many tech problems atm, so lets solve them as fast as possible, and then discuss in smaller groups about better solutions <end>
00:07 -!- ianb [~ianb@dsl081-228-065.chi1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Quit: Client Exiting]
00:08 <@brianski> ok, unless anyone blocks, its on to mail problems for now
00:09  * ansti raises
00:09 <@brianski> i'm not seeing any progress made here, and tho i agree with those who think the hardware is important, i cannot delete anyone's block
00:09  * micah raises
00:09 <@brianski> ansti, go ahead, then micah
00:09 <@ansti> i would like to solve this emergency problem about irc
00:09 <@ansti> what about installing ircd on two more servers, add them to irc.indymedia.org dns entry.
00:10 <@ansti> then the network should work for now, am I right?
00:10 <@ansti> that would be a fast solution, and ircd can talk about future solutions <end>
00:10 <@brianski> ok, ansti has a proposal.
00:10 <@brianski> micah, go ahead
00:10  * brianski twinkles at ansti's proposal
00:10  * Arc blocks, as expading or changing the current network in any way was blocked previously.
00:11  * brianski is having a really hard time facilitating this
00:11 <@micah> I agree with ansti, the two additional server should be ones with reliable network and hardware. I have a server and a co-lo where we can put a machine that can operate as a irc server and wiki server.
00:11  * Arc again notes that his block cannot be resolved by this group, in this meeting, and thus continuing this discussion here with people who are neither involved in the problem nor can fix it is pointless.
00:11 <@brianski> any volunteers to releave me, or shall i shout profanities out the window?
00:12 <@brianski> s/lea/lei/
00:12  * jebba notes that if there wasn't this "block" the problem would likely have been solved by now...
00:13 <@micah> I'd also like to point out that arc's block does not hold here if we want to technically argue the merits of it, which this discussion is not about. So I would propose that Arc's block be ignored and if he wishes to argue the validity of it, then he should take it to imc-tech at another time. 
00:13 <@micah> <end>
00:13  * brianski notes that we do operate by consensus... is arc's block valid?
00:13  * Arc notes that if Indymedia were a heirarchal organization, not consensus-based, we'd probobally be as big as CNN by now with everyone here being paid top salaries.
00:13  * jebba agrees w/ micah.
00:13  * Zapata does not see the point of Arc's block...
00:13  * humble thinks micah has a better grasp of process than arc
00:13  * Zapata thinks consensus decision making != everyone a veto
00:13  * ansti raises
00:14  * jebba thinks micah has a better grasp of reality...
00:14  * Arc requests the floor
00:14 <@rabble> formally based on imc-tech's opperating agreements we don't opperate by strict consensus, sorry i cant' find the eamil where it's documented, i've been searching
00:14  * brianski opens the window and shouts a long string of profanities out
00:14 <@brianski> rabble, please continue to search.
00:14  * micah raises
00:14  * brianski smacks rabble for being out of order
00:14 <@brianski> ansti, then arc, then micah
00:14 <@ansti> ok, there is a problem in the ircd group, and they don't do their job, did I get this? now I think _we_ cannot solve this problem.
00:15 <@ansti> we can give hardware and install ircd, they have to configure it.
00:15 <@ansti> I could help there if necessary.
00:15  * Arc disagrees with ansti.
00:15 <@ansti> but I think if we say we give two more servers to install ircd, that would be the solution i like to see here, not software questions.
00:15 <@ansti> <end>
00:16 -!- shane [~Snak@] has joined #meeting
00:16  * mtoups raises
00:16 -!- shane is now known as shane_afk
00:16  * brianski bumps mtoups up the stack
00:16 <@micah> Arc's block is causing a serious disruption to the operation of this group. I think Arc needs to evaluate wether or not his values are in concert with this groups, and if not, gracefully step aside.
00:16 <@brianski> ar and micah, please hold on
00:16 <@brianski> s/ar/arc
00:16 <@mtoups> proposal: irc is important, but right now mail seems to me to be a bigger crisis.  can we move on to that?
00:16 <@mtoups> rather than wear ourselves out on this debate
00:16 <@mtoups> <end>
00:17 <@brianski> how do people feel about mtoups's proposal?
00:17  * Arc feels that micah is being manipulative and dishonorable by trying to undermine consensus by moving a discussion to another group without knowledge of the problem
00:17 <@brianski> ok
00:17 <@brianski> no more so-and-so is doing blah-blah
00:17 <@brianski> that goes for both of you, ok?
00:17 <@brianski> regardless of who's right
00:17 <@micah> the power to block should be used sparingly, you can object without blocking. <end>
00:18 <@brianski> can we please agree to mtoups's proposal to move on to mail and come back to irc?
00:18 <@Arc> micah, I didnt make the block lightly.  I am quite serious in this, and I find it insulting that you're acting like this is some game.
00:18  * Arc seconds mtoup's proposal
00:18 <@brianski> arc, shut up
00:18  * ansti agrees to mtoups if the discussion goes no this way.
00:18 <@brianski> micah, please do not respond
00:18 <@brianski> thank you. :-)
00:19 <@ansti> s/no/on
00:19 <@brianski> i am going crazy here, and i doubt i'm the only one. we've spent an hour and 20 minutes on nothing. can we please move on to mail for now?
00:19 <@ansti> ok, lets do so
00:19  * brianski calls for a 30 seconds of deep-breath
00:19  * Zapata agrees and thanks arc for allowing the ircd problem to persist...
00:20 <@brianski> Zapata - please do not be accusatory. thank you :-)
00:20 <@brianski> ok, forget the arguments of the past.
00:20 <@brianski> now mail.
00:20  * ansti raises
00:21 <@brianski> ansti, go ahead
00:21 <@ansti> spam is getting more and more
00:21 <@josh> heh
00:21 <@ansti> I tried to install a spamfilter on sarai.
00:21 <@ansti> but there are some problems, but about that later.
00:21 <@ansti> I think this problem has to be solved _very_ fast
00:21 <@ansti> i get over 50 spammails a day about imc lists.
00:22  * micah raises hand
00:22  * brianski notes the topic is " mailing lists . overview of current situation (sarai) . solutions ", with some disagreement as to whether spam is relevant to this topic or not
00:22 <@ansti> I think I have a good solution, but later.
00:22 <@ansti> <end>
00:22 <@brianski> micah?
00:22 <@micah> I thought the agenda was to talk about sarai problems (hardware etc), and talk about spam later
00:22 <@ansti> oh, sorry
00:22 <@micah> <end>
00:22  * ansti apologizes.
00:22  * mtoups raises
00:22 <@brianski> mtoups?
00:23  * micah raises
00:23 <@brianski> then micah
00:23 <@mtoups> i was under the impression that sarai wasn't running spamassassin because of hardware problems/crashes
00:23 <@mtoups> and spam definitely qualifies as emergency because people are dropping off of lists fast
00:23 <@mtoups> so... seems pretty connected to me, shrug
00:23 <@mtoups> <end>
00:23 <@brianski> can someone give an " overview of current situation "?
00:23  * micah raises
00:23 <@brianski> micah, go ahead
00:23 <@micah> History of sarai is located here for anyone who doesn't have any background
00:23 <@micah> on this machine, please read this:
00:24 <@micah> http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Sysadmin/SaraiInfo
00:24 <@micah> As is obvious from sarai's history, it has lived a troubled life. The server
00:24 <@micah> has been kindly hosted in philedelphia, PA (USA) for some time. About two
00:24 <@micah> months ago developed a bad CPU fan, as stefani discovered through our
00:24 <@micah> environmental graphs. We asked philly to replace it, which they did.
00:24 <@micah> Unfortunately the server was still having problems (although the heat and
00:24 <@micah> fan problems went away). It was difficult to work on and reboot the machine
00:24 <@micah> because it was co-located in the suburbs and required a car to get to it. In
00:24 <@micah> the most recent sarai outages, the philly squat team rescued sarai from the
00:24 <@micah> suburbs, brought it downtown, replaced the power supply, added another case
00:24 <@micah> fan and we changed the IP. In total, the RAM, CPU fan, power supply have all
00:24 <@micah> been changed, it is possible due to the recent heat problems that componants
00:24 <@micah> were damaged (such as memory) and would need to be replaced again. Sarai has
00:24 <@micah> been a challenge to say the least.
00:25 <@micah> The current problems with sarai are: instable hardware causing the machine to lock up, processor limitations causing us not to be able to run spamassin, and looming disk limitations with regards to archives
00:25 <@micah> I think hving a machine that will run spamassassin is more critical than dealing with spam, so I'd like to talk about that first, spam second<end>
00:25  * ansti raises
00:26 <@brianski> sorry. ansti, go ahead
00:26  * mtoups is confused ... spamassassin and spam are different issues?
00:26 <@ansti> why do we run all the list and mail stuff on this server?
00:26 <@micah> they are interrelated
00:26 <@ansti> I think we have servers that are more stable.
00:26 <@ansti> mail and list stuff is one of the most important services at indymedia.
00:26  * matze raises
00:27  * josh raises
00:27  * micah raises
00:27 <@ansti> <end>
00:27 <@brianski> ok, matze
00:27 <@brianski> then josh then micah
00:27 <@matze> there is a proposal from listworkers to distribute the mail/lists over different servers
00:27 <@matze> having sub-domains for the different imcs
00:28  * ansti raises
00:28 <@matze> maybe it's the oppotunity to realize this proposal
00:28 <@matze> <end>
00:28 <@brianski> josh, micah, ansti
00:28 <@josh> let me throw another wrench into this -- which suggests the idea of spreading mail to multiple servers might be a great idea
00:28 <@josh> right now sarai is hosted in philadelphia
00:29 <@josh> the organization donating the space is moving all of its computers to a data center in phoenix, arizona
00:29 <@josh> so if sarai is to remain in the donated space the machine will need to be shipped to phoenix
00:29 <@josh> philly can work with mail to temporarily keep the data on another server in the interim, etc. etc. but spreading out the mail service would help with that
00:29 <@josh> the phoenix issue is also just an issue by itself that deserves to be noted
00:29 <@josh> [end]
00:29 <@brianski> micah
00:30 <@brianski> shit, i have to become sparse
00:30 <@brianski> can someone take over facilitating?
00:30 <@brianski> mtoups?
00:30 <@mtoups> sure
00:30 <@micah> are the technical aspects of spreading lists/mail to multiple servers worked out and could they be implemented now? This is an emergency and we need to find a solution to sarai immediately and I wonder if that means replacing the machine to resolve this problem (I have a machine and colo, just logistics to work out), and then working out the distribution of lists... or can the distribution of lists solve this emergency in a timely manner?
00:30 <@micah> <end>
00:30 <@brianski> thanks, all hail new dictator/facilitator mtoups!
00:30  * micah hails
00:30 <@mtoups> ansti?
00:30  * brianski will be participating sporadically
00:30 <@ansti> I want to reply to all the stuff matze said. I think it's a listwork question
00:31 <@ansti> this should be discussed in listwork
00:31  * matze can't answer micahs question, he isn't in the listwork-group
00:31 <@ansti> Right now I see big problems with sarai, and I see the point I wrote above.
00:31 <@ansti> we need to solve this problem fast, and we need a listwork meeting soon.
00:31 <@ansti> splitting mail is possible, but we didn't decide which solution we use.
00:32 <@ansti> that's a big discusssion and would be to big for an emergency meeting
00:32 <@ansti> we should discuss only the emergency problem solutions
00:32 <@ansti> <end>
00:32 <@mtoups> to interject my opinion... i like distributed lists but it sounds difficult to administer given the way mailman currently works.  maybe with clever aliasing though.  still introduces multiple points of failure .. redundancy is another issue (i lurk on listwork)
00:33  * micah raises hand
00:33 <@mtoups> one thing that sounds easier and more appropriate now... have a box do spamassassin and the pass on the mail to another box for aliases/lists ?
00:33 <@mtoups> <end>
00:33  * ansti raises
00:33 <@mtoups> micah?
00:33 <@mtoups> then ansti
00:33  * rabble raises his hand
00:34  * josh raises
00:34 <@micah> I would like to propose we resolve the hardware problem, the problem that josh raised, and the desire of listwork all by replacing sarai with another machine, which will allow listwork to work towards their decisions. Without a machine, listwork cannot even do this.
00:34 <@micah> <end>
00:34 <@mtoups> ansti
00:34 <@ansti> I think we should make sarai more stable. since I have an account on sarai, I understand why it crashed so often. It has many stuff installed self-compiled where good debian packages exist
00:35 <@ansti> I would like to move apache, mailman, spamassassin etc. to debian packages.
00:35  * micah raises in response
00:35 <@ansti> I learned that then admin is more easy.
00:35 <@ansti> I use many debian software and I think that would make many things easier.
00:35 <@ansti> <end>
00:35 <@mtoups> micah -- response to ansti
00:35 <@micah> the problem with sarai is not software, it is hardware, for sure... I think moving towards packages is a good idea, but would not solve this problem. <end>
00:35 -!- mike [~mike@h68-146-165-80.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #meeting
00:35  * josh nods
00:36  * ansti raises
00:36 <@mtoups> i believe rabble is next
00:37 <@micah> lets pass on him?
00:37 <@mtoups> maybe on to josh while we wait for rabble?
00:37 <@josh> ok
00:38 <@josh> i agree with micah: problems are hardware and a new box is a good solution.  tehcnical comment: if we run spamproxyd (which answers for the smtp port) on a different machine than the MTA, it is easy to split up spam stuff & mail handling
00:38 <@josh> [end]
00:38 <@mtoups> ansti
00:38 <@ansti> I think moving sarai to another server, installing debian and using only packages is a good idea. I would like to help there, and I know all the mailman, apache, spamassassin, ... packages.
00:38 <@rabble> four people active in listwork met at hte world social forum in brasil, they put together a proposal. One of the items was to divide up personal eamil addresses so taht it was yourname@yourimc.indymeida.org. But they didn't address the issue of setting up local or seperate mail servers.  I personally don't know shit about configuring high traffic mail servers.
00:38 <@ansti> <end>
00:38 <@rabble> end
00:39  * mtoups notes that he has filed a bug against mailman in debian to get v2.1.1 in which has security fixes apparently
00:39  * ansti raises
00:39 <@mtoups> go ahead ansti
00:39 <@ansti> I think it's not a problem of server bandwidth etc.
00:39  * micah raises hand
00:39 <@ansti> it's just that sarai is unstable.
00:40 <@ansti> normaly the liststuff not to much for 1-2 servers.
00:40 <@ansti> for the future we have to devide it, but now it's ok to use other hardware.
00:40 <@ansti> as i wrote above I think we need a fast solution soon.
00:41 <@ansti> <end>
00:41 <@mtoups> micah
00:41  * matze has to leave and offers helping on a sarai replacement
00:41  * rabble raises his hand
00:41 -!- matze [matze@localhost] has left #meeting [ciao ciao]
00:41 <@micah> so we agree that we need to replace sarai, lets talk about solutions. One solution is a "refridgerator" machine that SF IMC has said we could use to replace sarai. It is an HP Netserver with 6 18gig disks, hardware raid, and possibility for 6 more disks. It is on wheels and is a solid server box.
00:41 <@micah> the issues with this solution
00:42 <@micah> I dont think it is rackmountable, I am working on a possible colocation in san francisco, but nothing yet. There is a colo in seattle that would take it (even though it is not rack mount)
00:42 <@micah> but the issue is getting it there, and making sure there is more than just stefani available to work on it locally
00:42 <@micah> one last hting
00:42  * ansti raises
00:42 -!- pietro [irc@] has joined #meeting
00:43 <@micah> if we take this from SF IMC it is on the condition of a trade, they would like a 2u box to replace it.... sarai is this, and they said they would consider it because they could do the work on it to make it reliable.
00:43 <@micah> <end>
00:43 <@mtoups> rabble, then ansti
00:43 <@rabble> I think the problem with load is that spam asassin was killing the server.  I support micah's replacement server idea as long as we can find a colo for it. end
00:43 <@ansti> I would like to know some basic questions: do we have money to pay for server hosting? the point is that I see a server-monopol in the usa, and I would like to have more servers in eu/australia etc.
00:43 <@ansti> <end>
00:43 <@mtoups> ansti
00:43 <@mtoups> er ok
00:43  * micah raises hand
00:43  * humble raises
00:43 <@mtoups> go ahead micah
00:44 <@micah> the colocation facilities in seattle would be donation (ie. free), the one i am working on in the bay area would be free too
00:44 <@micah> <end>
00:44 <@mtoups> humble
00:44 < humble> that's better than I can offer - we pay for bandwidth
00:44 < humble> end
00:44  * micah raises hand
00:44 <@mtoups> so there are open hosting offers in the EU right?
00:44 <@mtoups> micah
00:44  * ansti raises
00:45 <@micah> I agree with ansti, it would be good to have more servers outside the US, but I think we should use free offers whenever we can to keep our costs low.
00:45 <@micah> <end>
00:45 <@mtoups> ansti?
00:45  * josh raises
00:45 <@ansti> oh
00:45  * micah raises
00:45 <@ansti> mtoups: yes, one in denmark but it's not reachable atm
00:45 <@mtoups> also... are we utilizing berkman.indy to its full potential?  it has lots of b/w and cpu power.  this might not be something arc would be crazy about though.
00:45 <@ansti> I would like to ask some hosting companies if they would offer something.
00:45 <@ansti> <end>
00:46 <@mtoups> josh, go ahead
00:46  * Arc raises
00:46 <@josh> also for openness' sake i wanted to mention that LA got money for bandwidth from global finance in a move i never understood
00:46 <@josh> [end]
00:46 <@mtoups> micah
00:46 <@micah> I think there is an open hosting option at calx in the netherlands, but we dont have a server for it. I think ansti should definately try and get us bandwidth with companies, but this is an emergency and I think we should use free stuff we have now to resolve this problem, then work on getting more things outside the US. <end>
00:47 <@mtoups> arc go ahead
00:47 <@mtoups> (berkman is at calx right arc?)
00:47 <@Arc> berkman is not free of CPU... transcoders, especially on live audio, eats alot of CPU
00:47  * rabble raises his hand
00:47 <@Arc> however I am forming a proposal for using berkman for backing up local IMCs
00:48 <@Arc> which wouldnt use alot of cpu
00:48 <@Arc> <end>
00:48 -!- luis [jack@BHE025030.res-com.wayinternet.com.br] has joined #meeting
00:48  * ansti would like to through away the berkman idea (no more flamewars)
00:48  * mtoups thinks that is a good call, berkman has lots of disk and streaming doesn't need disk
00:48 <@mtoups> go ahead rabble
00:48 <@rabble> could we put a second server at calx?  i assume in NL we coudl get the ascii/imc nl geeks to baby sit it  <end>
00:48 -!- pietro [irc@] has quit [Quit: Finalizando Cliente]
00:48  * micah raises hand
00:48 <@mtoups> micah
00:49 <@micah> I think our requirements are: cheap or free bandwidth, a solid server that can do what we do now (hopefully more), and comitted local support.
00:49 <@micah> <end>
00:49  * josh raises
00:49 <@mtoups> go josh
00:49  * ansti raises
00:50 <@josh> maybe we should spend 1500 or whatnot and ship a computer to NL
00:50 <@josh> something new and workable
00:50 <@josh> i hear ther'es money in the account
00:50 <@josh> and this is crucial
00:50 <@josh> [end]
00:50 <@mtoups> ansti
00:50  * rabble mentiones we have $6500 in the bank. end
00:50  * micah raises hand
00:50 <@ansti> I would like to search for hosting offers here, because I have enough time to do local work on servers like sarai replacement
00:50 <@ansti> <end>
00:51 <@mtoups> micah
00:51  * Arc raises re: calyx hosting
00:51 <@micah> I dont know if it makes sense to allocate $1500 to ship a machine when we have a machine that could go in a colo soon. We could use that money some other way.
00:51 <@micah> <end>
00:51 <@mtoups> arc
00:51  * josh raises
00:52 <@Arc> before we start talking about buying a new server for calyx we need to talk to them about it, what I was told is they are very limited as far as rackspace in amsterdam and thus they werent sure how much they could offer as far as space
00:52  * rabble raises
00:52 <@Arc> however their NYC office has lots of spare space, with the disadvantage of being in the US
00:52 <@Arc> <end>
00:52 <@mtoups> josh
00:53 <@josh> are there people who can help stefani in seattle or not really?  that seems to be the one problem with it.  also is there a machine available for a month or two to just keep us afloat?  not ideal but ... [end]
00:53  * mtoups thinks US is an advantage when we're talking about shipping
00:53 <@rabble> for $1500 or a little more we could buy a server in the netherlands and still working on getting the fridge online on the west coast.  In terms of new york, my recollection was they had lots of rackspace but a pretty maxed out T1 ( unless you are talking about calx in new york and not the nyc imc) .end
00:53  * micah raises in response to josh
00:53  * Arc twinkles at mtoups
00:53 <@mtoups> go micah
00:53 <@micah> there are a couple other tech people in seattle that I believe we could get to help there, they have said they would in the past.
00:53 <@micah> <end>
00:53  * Arc rabble: was refering to calyx in NYC.
00:54 <@rabble> thanks arc
00:54  * josh raises
00:54 <@mtoups> go josh
00:54 <@josh> maybe we should buy a server so we can have one in EU if calyx has space anyway and pursue both directions
00:54 <@josh> [end]
00:55 <@mtoups> so ok, good ideas all around, what is the most immediate time wise?
00:55  * Arc raises
00:55 <@mtoups> we need to get lists up and reliable with spamassassin ASAP
00:55  * ansti wonders if calyx hostes linux machines
00:55 <@mtoups> we can't really afford another week like last week ( i think seattle and philly techs will agree)
00:55 <@mtoups> go arc
00:56  * ansti raises
00:56  * micah rases
00:56 <@Arc> we need to find out which side of the pond the server is going to be hosted at, cause I looked into it for berkman pre-swiss offer, to build a machine for calyx, and it does cost as much to build it in the eu as it does the us, and overseas shipping is expensive
00:56 <@Arc> so i think figuring out where it's going to go should come before buying the hardware
00:56 <@Arc> <end>
00:56 <@mtoups> go micah
00:57 <@micah> I for one am sick of dealing with sarai, and I think we are asking a lot of philly tech. I agree that we cannot go another week like last week
00:57 <@micah> In a couple days I could find out if this server here could go here, which would be a quick resolution. If it had to be sent to seattle it could be prepared here (installation of software, configurations etc) and then sent there.
00:57 <@micah> <end>
00:57 <@ansti> what about using this offer in us, and install sarai on it. then upset debian and a good mail system. now we could go on to spam (I need sleep)
00:57  * Arc twinkles re: sick of dealing with sarai problems
00:57 <@ansti> oh, sorry
00:57 <@mtoups> no problem, no one was on the queue
00:58  * micah raises hand
00:58 <@mtoups> go micah
00:58  * josh raises hand
00:58 <@ansti> <end>
00:59 <@micah> I can put this server online with a base debian install on it that people can get on to start building up the sarai replacement. That can be ready today.
00:59 <@micah> I will work on a local co-lo, which would be better, and if cant do that, will bring logistics and requirements for getting it to seattle to the group as soon as possible
00:59 <@ansti> micah: would be nice if I could upset apache, mailman and spamassassin.
00:59 <@micah> <end>
00:59 <@micah> ansti: you mean install?
00:59 <@ansti> micah: yes, and configure
01:00 <@mtoups> cool, josh is next i believe
01:00 <@micah> ansti: I will install base debian and provide IPs/accounts to those working on it
01:00 <@micah> ansti: and let yu do those :)
01:00 <@ansti> micah: ok ;)
01:00 <@micah> soryr
01:00  * ansti would like to go on with spam now
01:00 <@josh> let me just second micah's plan as a great one and respectful of philly's needs
01:00 <@josh> [end]
01:00 <@josh> yay spam
01:00  * micah raises hand
01:00  * mtoups will help admin debian stuff also if necessary
01:00  * ansti raises 
01:00 <@mtoups> go micah
01:01  * ansti would like to introduce
01:01 <@micah> just one last thing... I just want to say publically thanks so much to the philly tech team for several nights of suburbs and hardware hell and dealing... much appreciated!!
01:01 <@micah> <end>
01:01  * josh responds
01:01 <@josh> micah is our hero
01:01 <@josh> [end]
01:01  * mtoups seconds on the philly gratitude
01:01 <@micah> heh
01:02 <@mtoups> also pittsburgh has three good techs (myself, quinten, and john aka gimpboy) and reliable b/w (college campus, not datacenter) but no hardware
01:02  * micah notes we are moving onto spam and ansti wants to intro it
01:02 <@mtoups> anyway, ansti, you want to introduce the spam issue?
01:02 <@ansti> filtering spam is no problem with spamassassin. I have many configs running without problem. The problem on sarai was that there were ca. 3 different spamassassin installs running and nothing did really work. 
01:02 <@ansti> I would configure sarai replacement this way:
01:03 <@ansti> filtering _all_ lists by default and providing the catched spam at the web.
01:03 <@ansti> for example at http://spam.indymedia.org/imc-germany
01:03 <@ansti> maybe I'll write a webinterface to simply admin the spam (resend it to the list without being spam etc)
01:04 <@ansti> then every listadmin gets access for his spam.
01:04 <@ansti> also we could do very easy spam statistics etc.
01:04 <@ansti> <end>
01:04  * josh heads out
01:04 <@mtoups> my thoughts...
01:06  * ansti reraises to add something
01:06 <@mtoups> would it be possible to have a sandbox server kind of set up for testing new ideas for mail ... new spamassassin setup, maybe new mailman version ... where we could deploy this stuff first
01:06 <@mtoups> while still getting functionality back asap
01:06  * Arc raises
01:06 <@mtoups> so new mailman version needs to happen, but akb says migration is kind of tough
01:06 <@mtoups> etc
01:06 <@mtoups> arc?
01:07 <@Arc> i think we need to solve the current issue with mail/spam/etc, where we're already stretching our resources, before looking to expand it
01:07 <@Arc> tho i think we need to improve the spam filtering, majorly
01:07 <@Arc> any form of spam protection is better than none at all
01:08  * ansti raises in respond
01:08 <@Arc> so we dont have to deal with seeing this is our inbox several times an hour:
01:08 <@Arc> 5407 ND  Mar 30 Boone Davis     (  57) [IMC-Audio] Dildo  Queen Will Shove In An
01:08 <@Arc> <end>
01:08 <@mtoups> yeah i think i am in agreement with arg.  ansti?
01:08 <@mtoups> err arc, sorry :)
01:08 <@ansti> I think this question is not really difficult to solve, but we need a running sarai replacement for that. otherwise I would need to rm all the sa stuff on sarai, and that can take long time with many spam.
01:08 <@ansti> the problem is that there is no real spam filter running now. the sa version running atm is quite old and not on every list.
01:08  * mtoups blames the typo on the ancient SGI keyboard, not freud
01:08 <@ansti> the stuff is really annoying and has to change.
01:09 <@ansti> but running new sa installation this is no problem.
01:09 <@ansti> an easy proof: my local sa installation filters 90% of the spam comming to me over imc lists to caughtspam.
01:10 <@ansti> every sa installation running without problems on sarai would do this too.
01:10 <@ansti> <endY>
01:10 <@ansti> -Y
01:10 <@mtoups> what about the idea of a seperate box doing SA?
01:11 <@Arc> <joke>BZZ, invalid SGML syntax!</joke>
01:11  * Arc twinkles at that idea
01:11  * ansti raises in response to mtoups
01:11  * Arc raises
01:11 <@brianski> <lack of laughter>ugh</lack of laughter>
01:11 <@mtoups> go ahead ansti
01:12 <@ansti> I think it's not necessary and would take to long to setup now.
01:12 <@ansti> the point is that we need a replacement for sarai, if we have this, the spam problem will be solved soon.
01:12  * micah raises hand
01:12 <@ansti> I'm quite convinced of that
01:12 <@ansti> <end>
01:12 <@mtoups> arc?
01:12 <@Arc> what exactly is the problem with sarai? is it's hardware defective? why does running sa cause it to crash?
01:12 <@Arc> <end>
01:12 <@mtoups> micah
01:13 <@micah> hardware is defective on sarai, we dont know what it is, but it sustained high heat, memory could be bad now, and exercising the machine may or may not cause it to crash
01:13 <@micah> so it is not clear that spam assassin actually causes crashing due to resource overload or getting to areas in memory that are corrupt
01:14 <@micah> I am inclined to think that SA is not at fault at all
01:14  * Arc raises again
01:14 <@micah> <end>
01:14 <@mtoups> go ahead arc
01:14  * ansti wants to add that sa causes strange output sometimes (because of the selfcompiled stuff)
01:14 <@Arc> short term, if running SA causes it to crash, prehaps setting SA on one or more systems and then forwarding to the existing sarai, atleast until a sarai replacement can be setup, isnt that a good short-term solution?
01:14 <@Arc> <end>
01:15  * ansti raises
01:15 <@mtoups> go ansti
01:15 <@ansti> I think it's not taking long to setup sarai replacement 
01:15  * micah raises hand
01:15 <@ansti> if micah sets up a debian base install this day, I'll do basic config tomorrow, and in 3-4 days sarai can be replaces.
01:15 <@ansti> s/s/d
01:16 <@ansti> any other solution would take as long as the above
01:16 <@ansti> <end>
01:16 <@micah> sarai crashes with or without spamassasin running. I think we get sarai replacement working with spamassassin and then revisit this issue if SA continues to be a problem.
01:16 <@mtoups> well what can we do _tonight_ so that indymedia lists function next week seamlessly?  ok, if a new system can happen that fast... right on
01:16 <@micah> <end>
01:16  * micah notes when this meeting is done he will go get sarai replacement online
01:16  * mtoups applauds
01:17  * ansti notes that he will do all the mailman apache and spamassassin work tomorrow.
01:17 <@mtoups> so, what is this system?  is it a permanant replacement?
01:17 <@mtoups> did i miss that part of the meeting? :)
01:17 <@mtoups> do we still need to discuss purchases/upgrades?
01:18  * ansti would like to go to bed now
01:18  * micah thinks ansti should go to bed and expect a machine to work on tomorrow
01:18  * micah raises hand reluctantly
01:18 <@mtoups> cool.  i think the timezones work to our advantage ... ansti may be done before we wake up int he US
01:18 <@mtoups> go micah
01:19  * ansti does so. but first he needs a hookah after this stress *g*
01:19  * mtoups wonders when we can roll out dns changes, etc
01:19 <@micah> I have a server and co-location for kropotkin replacement to do wiki (docs.indy) and irc, a solid machine in a good colo.
01:19 <@micah> that I made a proposal that imc-tech pay for
01:19 <@ansti> bye
01:19 <@micah> I could put this machine online today and have everything moved over by tonight.
01:19 <@micah> <end>
01:19 <@mtoups> bye ansti
01:19  * micah waves to ansti
01:20 <@mtoups> micah: to clarify, you mean this box would do mail/lists instead of irc/wiki ?
01:20 <@micah> resolving docs.wiki, ircd stability issues and sarai issues all in one day.
01:20 <@micah> woops
01:20 <@micah> <re-end>
01:20 <@micah> mtoups: no
01:20 <@mtoups> or.. all of the above?
01:20 <@micah> mtoups: I have two boxes
01:20 <@micah> mtoups: one is a 2u, as proposed to imc-tech, that can go into colo today.
01:21 <@micah> mtoups: it is too small disk wise to be a sarai replacement
01:21 <@micah> mtoups: I have a refridgerator that has disks that could be a sarai replacement
01:21 <@micah> mtoups: that I can have online at the SF IMC office for working on sarai replacement today
01:21 <@mtoups> hmm i must have missed your email to imc-tech in all the spam :)
01:21 <@micah> mtoups: and I will work on getting it into a perm. colo asap
01:22 <@micah> mtoups: referidgerator cannot go into the colo for the 2u server because that colo requires 2u or less only
01:22 <@mtoups> understood
01:22 <@micah> <end>
01:22 <@mtoups> but the refridgerator will be what ansti works on tomorrow morning?
01:22  * micah nods
01:22 <@mtoups> also... reading the email... 2x18 GB is too small for sarai?  what are sarai's disk requirements just so we know
01:23 <@micah> http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-tech/2003-March/010988.html
01:23 <@Zapata> what's silc?
01:23 <@micah> mtoups: sarai has a lot of list archives, the disk is not enough
01:23  * brianski is back
01:24 <@micah> silc is "secure internet live conferencing" some people want to start moving towards that instead of IRC
01:24 <@micah> but it is a larger issue
01:24 <@Zapata> ok
01:24  * brianski is the meeting over?
01:24 <@micah> no
01:24 <@mtoups> ok, so we're done with spam then
01:24  * brianski gets his ass back in line
01:25 <@mtoups> micah's going to snap his fingers and make two servers appear in colos :)
01:25  * micah raises hand
01:25 <@mtoups> do we need to discuss anything regarding $400 for this new irc/wiwk server?
01:25 <@mtoups> go micah
01:25 <@micah> mtoups: well, not exactly... :)
01:25 <@micah> <end>
01:25 <@mtoups> brianski, you have something to add?
01:27  * micah raises
01:27  * mtoups notes the proposal to IMC-tech was made three days ago
01:27 <@mtoups> go micah
01:27 <@micah> the problem is there is a block that we are uncertain if it applies
01:27 <@mtoups> oh, right, back to the ircd issues
01:27 <@micah> yah, i could do work or I could not, thats what it comes down to
01:27 <@mtoups> do we want to go back to this now?  are we neglecting other agenda items?
01:27 <@micah> <end>
01:28 <@mtoups> i guess no one else has other burning issues
01:29 <@mtoups> to sum up -- we give SF-IMC sarai, they give us fridge
01:29 <@mtoups> fridge goes to colo
01:29 <@mtoups> ansti performs spamassassin/postfix black magic
01:29 <@mtoups> we're all happy
01:29 <@mtoups> yes?
01:30 <@mtoups> i like repetition
01:30  * humble shouts "yay!"
01:30  * brianski is still reading, but notes that stefani has offered use of emma *temporarily* until sarai gets fixed up
01:30  * micah raises
01:30 <@mtoups> ok.  perhaps if the fridge deal doesn't come up too fast.. ?
01:30 <@mtoups> micah?
01:30 <@micah> not quite mtoups... 
01:31 <@micah> fridge doesn't have a colo yet
01:31 <@micah> so it will be online at SF IMC DSL for configuration only
01:31 <@micah> while I find colo :)
01:31 <@mtoups> ahhh
01:31 <@micah> <end>
01:31 <@mtoups> so i think what brian is saying has merit
01:32 <@mtoups> is it possible we might need emma to handle mail in the interim until the fridge is up?
01:32 <@mtoups> each day of sarai with no spamassassin, or sarai crashing a lot, is bad <end>?
01:32 <@micah> good question
01:32  * brianski raises
01:33 <@mtoups> go brianski
01:33 <@brianski> also, we'd have to discuss it with the group tomorrow, but ithaca-IMC has access to a bunch of P2 class machines, which we could get down to pittsburgh if that would be a significant improvement, CPU-wise
01:33 <@brianski> <end>
01:34 <@mtoups> heh
01:34 <@mtoups> quinten left from ithaca to pittsburgh earlier today
01:34 <@mtoups> oh well
01:34 <@brianski> dammit
01:34 <@brianski> <end> :-)
01:34 <@mtoups> to throw out there: pittsburgh has three good techs (myself, quinten, john aka gimpboy) and some b/w.  and recently a good place to locate machines (non-rack).
01:35 -!- gaba [irc@] has joined #meeting
01:35  * mtoups feels like a bad facilitator when trying to talk also, oh well
01:35 <@brianski> mtoups - how much bandwidth are we talking about?
01:35 <@mtoups> we could easily be a secondary irc box with one of those
01:35 <@brianski> ooooh
01:36  * micah raises hand
01:36 <@mtoups> we have low latency... the issue is if we sustain gigs and gigs per day
01:36 <@mtoups> go micah
01:36 <@micah> I will know about sarai replacement in this colo earliest tonight, latest monday night
01:37 <@micah> just an update
01:37 <@micah> <end>
01:38  * micah raises hand
01:38 <@mtoups> go micah
01:39 <@micah> another possibility is that kropotkin can come up from LA, I have talked to chris B about it, but we would not have a location for it. The good thing about this 2u I proposed is that it has a home, has an installation on it, and would be a drop in replacement, I simply need to drive somewhere, plug it in and we are happy.
01:39 <@micah> so is there an issue with replacing the machine that ircd runs on with the exact same setup?
01:40 <@micah> considering that would not change the existing ircd setup and configuration
01:40 <@micah> just location physically and networkwise
01:40 <@micah> <end>
01:40  * micah raises again
01:41 <@mtoups> hmm... micah go for it
01:41  * mtoups :)
01:41  * brianski is having deja-vu
01:41 <@micah> I personally think, as roles of different groups go, that hardware and bandwidth and system admin are the realm of imc-sysadmin, and the problem with irc right now is those, and I want to fix them
01:41 <@micah> I think that the irc problems that arc has are issues that we need to resolve
01:42 <@micah> and don't want to put those aside
01:42  * earthman raises
01:42 <@micah> but, they have to do with the ircd working group, and this has to do with imc-sysadmin, and although I am part of both I am not trying to act disengenously in doing this
01:42 <@micah> I just want to stabalize hardware and network with a solution
01:42 <@micah> <end>
01:42 <@mtoups> earthman
01:43 <@earthman> what exactly are arc's issues with irc? (brief synopsis stated here) <end>
01:43 <@micah> it is complicated and gets personal...
01:43 <@Arc> lets not get into it again.
01:43  * brianski raises
01:43 <@micah> but it has to do with replacing the existing ircd sotware with a different one
01:43 <@mtoups> go brian
01:43  * Arc raises
01:44 <@micah> and arc wants to block ircd from doing work until we have a meeting to discuss it
01:44 <@micah> <end>
01:44 <@brianski> i agree with not getting in to it again. micah, arc, do you have a problem with me producing a quick, factual analysis of the situation, from what i can gather?
01:44  * earthman raises in response
01:44  * micah has no problem with that
01:44  * brianski notes by quick he means like 2 sentences
01:44 <@mtoups> go earthman
01:45 <@mtoups> err no end there sorry brian, but i assume
01:45 -!- leonardo [provo@dl-nas2-cba-C8B04287.p001.terra.com.br] has joined #meeting
01:45 <@brianski> yeah sorry i was waiting to make sure micah and arc were ok with what i proposed
01:45 <@brianski> <end> (unless arc says its ok)
01:46 <@Arc> brian, I think I can sum it up better (since many people, including micah, dont seem to understand)
01:46  * rabble still has a block of arc proposal to change the process via a block
01:46  * brianski sez nevermind then :-)
01:46  * brianski is sorry he said anything :-(
01:46  * earthman just wanted to note that this "thing" has been the cause of a block, and discussion about that block, for at least 30m here, and sees no way for those not part of "history" to understand how it applies to the current impasse
01:46  * Arc raises again
01:47 <@mtoups> hmm is earthman done?
01:47  * brianski kicks mtoups - arc was actually due to go before earthman :-)
01:47 <@mtoups> err ok my bad
01:47 <@mtoups> ooh i see that
01:47 <@earthman> mtoups: yeah, wasn't sure if i was on or off <end for sure, heh>
01:47 <@mtoups> ok meeting + /msgs + plus real life conversatoins == trouble
01:47 <@mtoups> go arc
01:47 <@Arc> Ok im going to clairify myself here, since many people dont understand what this is about.
01:47 <@brianski> mtoups - want me to re-releive you? :-)
01:48 <@Arc> there was a heated debate over what ircd software, services, etc to run last fall
01:48 <@Arc> that is not what this block is about
01:48 <@mtoups> brianski - depends, i don't have any position on the irc thing so i might be in a better position if you want to get into it.
01:48 <@brianski> mtoups - cool.
01:49 <@Arc> this block is about decidions being made outside of meetings/list, privatly and non-transparently by a self-organizing group within imc-tech
01:49 <@Arc> specifically, I blocked any change in the current system until ircd had a public meeting and these things were consensed on
01:50 -!- stefani [irc@] has joined #meeting
01:50 <@Arc> I feel that many things, well almost everything dealing with irc.indy, have been done non-transparently and heirarchally, and this block was the only way I feel consensus can be forced.
01:51 <@Arc> <end>
01:51 <@mtoups> ok i don't see anyone else on the queue recently...
01:52 < humble> next agenda item?
01:53 <@mtoups> well we've got past spam to misc. issues.....
01:53  * Arc notes that he just sent a proposal for a ircd meeting next saturday to the ircd list.
01:53 <@mtoups> i'm surprised (pleasantly) that the irc topic hasn't blown up
01:54 <@mtoups> arc, cool.  i haven't gotten it yet, but sarai is being slow as we all know
01:54 <@mtoups> so are people cool with talking about irc servers and irc software next saturday?
01:54  * micah asks who is logging now that ansti left?
01:54 <@brianski> uhh, i have it if need be
01:55 <@brianski> (to micah) <end>
01:55  * brianski is cool with irc being discussed next sat.
01:56 <@micah> can someone please find arc's "block"
01:56 <@micah> so we can see it?
01:57 -!- rabble [~Snak@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:57 < jebba> micah: http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/ircd/2002-November/000040.html
01:59  * micah raises hand
01:59 <@mtoups> go micah
01:59 <@micah> "I personally block any action with the IRCd until a meeting has taken
01:59 <@micah> place. "
01:59 <@micah> I assume this refers to either:
01:59 <@micah> the ircd software
01:59 <@micah> or the ircd working
01:59 <@micah> group
01:59 <@micah> neither of which is the issue here.
01:59 <@micah> <end>
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02:00  * Arc raises
02:00 <@mtoups> go arc
02:00 <@Arc> I feel it does. Besides, if we're meeting next weekend, why push the issue
02:00  * micah raises hand
02:00 <@Arc> if you want to fix krop thats one thing
02:01 <@Arc> but moving ircd around, setting up new irc servers, etc....
02:01 <@Arc> i dont understand why you're pushing this so hard if you're serious about trying to resolve the issues with the ircd group
02:01 <@Arc> <end>
02:01 <@micah> because I've got scores of people who want a solution to the network and hardware stability problems with irc and the wiki. I can fix those without touching ircd by making it exactly the same software. 
02:02 <@micah> I can fix those as a member of imc-sysadmin
02:02 <@micah> and we can resolve our ircd working group problems without anything changing
02:03 <@micah> I am being pushed by people to resolve this hardware and network problem and see it as something within imc-sysadmin's realm
02:03 <@micah> not ircd's
02:03 <@micah> and I have a solution
02:03  * Arc raises
02:03 <@micah> and I think it is a bad precendent to let blocks bleed into other working groups
02:03 <@micah> I will take a direct copy of the existing setup
02:04 <@micah> and be done with it, so i can move on to just as pressing issues
02:04 <@micah> we can resolve ircd working group problems at that meeting fine
02:04 <@micah> but I want to resolve imc-sysadmin issues at this meeting
02:04 <@micah> fine?
02:04 <@micah> <end>
02:04 <@mtoups> arc
02:05 <@Arc> what are you proposing, you are very unclear on this
02:05 <@Arc> moving krop? fixing him? i have no problem with that
02:05 <@Arc> but there is other stuff concerning ircd that's setup on kroppy's HD
02:05  * brianski notes anyone who wants to catch up can read http://wuhjuhbuh.afraid.org/ski/indy/m30.tech-sysadmin-meeting
02:05 <@Arc> especially the work I did on
02:05  * micah raises
02:05 <@Arc> which, afaik, is still there
02:05 <@Arc> by all means fix kroppy, move to a more stable host, etc
02:06 <@Arc> but I think setting up an identical ircd on another server is more of an ircd issue. 
02:06 <@Arc> correct me if im wrong, sysadmin keeps the servers running
02:06 <@Arc> ircd is responsible for installing, configuring, etc the software on them
02:06 <@Arc> <end>
02:06 <@mtoups> micah?
02:06 <@micah> I am proposing that we adopt the proposal I sent out to purchase the 2u server that is setup with a base debian, I install it in the colo that has agreed to take it, I move the data, exactly as it is on kropotkin, to this new serve. Kropotkin stays online as a secondary IRC server if it is decided that makes sense, it is not turned off or wiped.
02:07 <@micah> I thnk it is within the realm of imc-sysadmin to copy existing data to a new server to fix problems like this, and that ircd can install and configure that data as they see fit
02:07 <@micah> basically I am proposing we fix the kropotkin server problem
02:08 <@micah> with a different server, and different location
02:08 <@micah> without changing the software
02:08 <@micah> <end>
02:08  * Arc raises
02:08 <@mtoups> arc
02:08 <@Arc> if the new server is not named kropotkin then, if judi remains online, then something would have to change
02:09 <@Arc> i think we really need to resolve the ircd stuff
02:09  * mtoups raises
02:09 <@Arc> because the fact this new server is online at the same time kroppy is indicates a new server, and setting up that ircd falls into ircd-wg's domain
02:10 <@Arc> this isnt fixing kropotkin, this is setting up a brand new server to take over his functionality
02:10 <@Arc> which I applaude for docs.indy
02:10 <@Arc> but I dont think IRC currently constitutes enough of an emergency, beign as its currently working fine, to justify taking over some of ircd's functionality because the block-until-meeting is in place
02:11 <@Arc> (which BTW i never expected to last this long)
02:11 <@Arc> <end>
02:11 <@mtoups> ok so i do not think it would be inappropriate for imc-sysadmin WG to set up the same software on another physical server even if this involves changing a few bytes of a config file.  my opinion...
02:11  * micah wants to clarify
02:12 <@micah> no config file changes are necessary, only DNS changes
02:12 <@micah> <end>
02:12  * Arc raises
02:12 <@mtoups> will this prevent issues from being resolved within ircd WG?
02:12 <@mtoups> ok i am done, go arc
02:12 -!- brianski_krop [~ski@syr-24-59-96-217.twcny.rr.com] has quit [Quit: "back to judi i go"]
02:12 <@Arc> the question is if the "new" server (name, please?) will be networked with judi. that would change the structure.
02:12 <@Arc> currently krop and judi are networked
02:12  * brianski raises
02:13 <@Arc> and working fine
02:13 <@Arc> i think we should wait for ircd-wg to solve it's issues, which we were all in agreement that the final solution for ircd would be a distributed network of irc servers with hubs, etc
02:13 <@Arc> <end>
02:14 <@mtoups> go brianski
02:14 <@brianski> i propose the name bobby_meade, in honor of one of our most prolific writers :-)
02:14 <@brianski> <end>
02:14 <@mtoups> is he as good as strike-free.net ?
02:14 <@mtoups> <end>
02:14 < humble> doesn't believe in 'final solutions' for anything
02:14  * humble doesn't believe in 'final solutions' for anything
02:14 < humble> whups
02:14 <@mtoups> heh
02:15  * brianski goes to strike-free.net and goes huh?
02:15 <@mtoups> oh, the guy who runs that site spams a lot of imcs including pittsburhg
02:15 <@brianski> :-)
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02:15 <@mtoups> is there a real follow up that i'm missing?
02:16 <@mtoups> anyone?
02:16  * micah raises
02:16 <@mtoups> i'll point out that irc has been a problem in the past week
02:16 <@brianski> mtoups - bobby meade doesn't run a site that spams us, he just writes a whole lot of confusing shit
02:16 <@brianski> <end>, sorry
02:16 <@mtoups> and irc.indy is not round-robin
02:16 <@mtoups> go micah
02:17 <@micah> I would like to be allowed to perform imc-sysadmin work without being inhibited by ircd working group's problems. I disagree that the new server would change the structure, and do not think that this would prevent issues from being resolved within ircd workin group.
02:17 <@micah> <end>
02:17  * Arc raises
02:17 <@mtoups> go arc
02:18 <@Arc> i think that ircd-wg should govern what DNS irc.indy points to, and even changing that is stepping on toes. 
02:18 <@brianski> point of order, mister secretary!
02:18  * brianski ducks
02:19 <@Arc> hell point dns back at judi, thats what it was before anyways
02:19 <@Arc> so lets just say we setup this new server and let ircd-wg configure it.
02:20 <@Arc> <end>
02:20 <@mtoups> um what was that brianski?
02:20  * micah is confused how to reconcile arc's suggestion to change DNS when it goes against what he is arguing for
02:21 <@Arc> DNS was changed to krop after my block, micah
02:21 <@Arc> it was origionally on judi.
02:21 <@micah> ok
02:21 <@Arc> i ignored the change request because it was badly needed and didnt involve setting up a new server, still just krop and judi
02:22 <@micah> whatever, this isn't the issue here
02:22 <@micah> the issue is this:
02:22 <@mtoups> ok so the question is what is badly needed vs. what will disrupt ircd WG further
02:22 <@Arc> i dont see a problem with shifting it back to judi if that'll solve the problem for the next week
02:22 <@micah> I have a server and colo and a car TODAY, and I dont have these things next week
02:22 <@Arc> micah, i dont have a problem with setting up the server at the colo facility
02:22 <@Arc> hell please move docs.indy over to it!
02:23 <@micah> shifting to judi will make things worse and would violate your block
02:23 <@Arc> im just saying I think it's best to have the server available, but let ircd decide to move to it
02:23  * earthman raises
02:23 <@micah> no sub-working group does that
02:23  * Arc <ends> for earthman
02:23 <@mtoups> ok can we hang on a let earthman in here, then resume raising?
02:23 <@mtoups> cool.
02:24 <@earthman> have we shifted to "open discussion" mode without me noting? <end>
02:24 <@mtoups> yeah i kind of let that slide
02:24 <@earthman> k
02:24  * Arc raises
02:24 <@mtoups> go arc
02:24 <@earthman> </confusion> :)
02:24 <@Arc> one of the things going on with ircd is the idea that we're setting up this big network of ircd's, and maintaining that
02:25 -!- leonardo [provo@dl-nas2-cba-C8B04287.p001.terra.com.br] has quit []
02:25 <@Arc> that was primarily what the block was intended to stop until we discussed these plans openly and made some concrete decidions on
02:25  * micah raises hand
02:25 <@Arc> i just feel that setting up a third ircd is pushing the line more than is needed
02:25 <@Arc> <end>
02:25 <@mtoups> go micah
02:26 <@micah> fine with what arc says, I am going to do what I would do for imc-sysadmin then, not link in kropotkin in a third network style, just replace kropotkin
02:26 <@micah> <end>
02:26 <@Arc> good enough.
02:26  * Arc raises
02:26 <@mtoups> arc
02:27 <@Arc> like I said, moving kroppy is fine, which is what it feels like this is doing - moving everything off kropping to another host. just as long as the old kroppy isnt linked in, too
02:27 <@Arc> <end>
02:27  * Arc notes that three ircd's should technically have a hub, anyways
02:29 <@mtoups> so to sum up, micah will set up the new server and copy over kropotkin stuff...
02:29 <@mtoups> and take kropotkin's ircd down and replace it with the new server's?
02:29 <@mtoups> or just leave the new server as is until next weekend?
02:30 <@mtoups> <end>
02:32 <@micah> yeah
02:32 <@mtoups> i guess either ircd has died or we are done talking about it :)
02:32  * Arc proposes a brief discussion on whats happening with berkman
02:32  * micah wonders if I missed my ride. :p
02:33  * Arc suggests the ircd discussion is over
02:34 <@mtoups> ok, well, done with irc?  i'll hear what's up with berkman
02:34 <@Arc> ok
02:34 <@Arc> berkman was setup well in time, all the software (icecast2, etc) is installed
02:34 <@Arc> and it worked great for M20
02:34 <@Arc> we have archives of DC's live broadcast from the streets, etc
02:35 <@Arc> liveradio.indymedia.org was setup to point to berkman, I installed boa as a http just to get something up quickly
02:35 -!- boothe [~a@adsl-66-122-34-11.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net] has joined #meeting
02:35 <@Arc> four transcoders were running at once on berkman, using about a third of his one CPU
02:36 <@Arc> to enable the second CPU we need a kernel recompile, which hasnt happened yet. I tried to and it crashed, wouldnt reboot, had to have the guys at calyx boot the generic kernel to get him back online
02:36 <@Arc> (the new kernel wouldnt boot rather)
02:36  * humble raises his hand
02:36 <@Arc> and there's the discussion to mirror local IMCs on berkman, since he's in amsterdam. im volunteering to do this for Ithaca as a trial, see how it works and how much CPU it takes
02:37 <@Arc> since we'll need to mirror ithaca's audio gallery anyways to do the radio
02:37 <@Arc> we also have a relay server setup on ahimsa, but it hasnt been used yet
02:37 <@Arc> <end>
02:37 <@mtoups> humble
02:37 < humble> I like the liveradio thing...
02:38 < humble> was thinking of realying some of those streams to peercast or streamer... or better yet, can berkmen do that as well??
02:38 < humble> end
02:38  * Arc raises
02:38 <@mtoups> arc
02:39 <@Arc> icecast2 can do relay streaming, we have one setup on ahimsa and theoretically on paranode tho neither are setup yet
02:39 <@Arc> the main challenge right now is getting a stable transcoding system, since the current streamTranscoder (by oddsock) is kinda flaky.. sorry, really flaky.
02:40 <@Arc> as in the program needs to be killed/restarted periodically, and if the song changes on the stream (ie, mixed live/playlist) it segfaults
02:40 <@Arc> <end>
02:40 < humble> is there a WG responsible for liveradio.indy ?
02:40 <@Arc> currently, no, its kinda being done by sysadmin and audio WGs
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02:41  * Arc believes it should be maintained by the global audio WG
02:41 <@mtoups> do you have logs/mrtg or a way of gauging use of liveradio.indy ?
02:41 < humble> why not integrate it with radio.indy??
02:41 <@Arc> more work will have to be done to merge the two.. radio.indy currently is a active-based website on stallman, has a OP newswire, etc
02:42 <@Arc> whereas liveradio is just a index of radio stations
02:42 <@Arc> we never really discussed setting up a OP site for liveradio, i guess that wasnt the intention
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02:43 <@Arc> i think the audio wg needs to discuss this more
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02:43 <@Arc> oh, mtoups, we dont have anything to gauge currently. there's logs, tho they're hard to read. we also still need to figure out how to not log IPs in them
02:43 <@Arc> <end>
02:44 < humble> perhaps liveradio could commit to updating features on radio - no or at least make sure that there's a link between the two projects
02:44  * mtoups thinks humble has a good ia
02:45 <@Arc> totally
02:45 <@mtoups> idea, even.
02:45 <@mtoups> arc, what is the process for a local IMC to hook up with liveradio.indy ?
02:45 <@Arc> berkman is kinda the next generation of DROP
02:45 < humble> i worry about a distinction between radio and liveradio - it should be radio (which is live) and audio
02:45 <@Arc> mtoups, mail to imc-audio@lists.indymedia.org
02:45  * Arc agrees with humble
02:45 < humble> it's potentially dangereous, IMHO
02:45 <@Arc> liveradio.indy isnt really setup totally right now, its still in development
02:46 <@Arc> im loading the stream management software on berkman tonight and tomarrow
02:46 < humble> eg. you don't want someone listening to something assuming it's live and then it turns out to be 6 months old
02:47 < humble> enough from me ;-)
02:47 <@Arc> humble, alot hasnt happened at radio.indy in a long time, but if its going to move to liveradio.indy then berkman needs to be setup better
02:48 <@Arc> it'd be awesome to move radio.indy off stallman, imho
02:48 < humble> one idea: make the newswire for liveradio notices and audio, and devote the feature to real live streams
02:49 <@Arc> or instead of features just have it automatically generate, in the center column, a list of current live streams
02:49  * humble would sleep better if a lot of stallman was more de-centralized - no offense to the great man, himself (Stallman that is)
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02:50 <@mtoups> ok i am starting to do stuff that prevents me from facilitating, and it looks like this is natually becoming an open discussion anyway
02:50 <@mtoups> that cool with everyone?
02:50 <@Arc> yea
02:50 <@brianski> excellent job under difficult circumstances, matt!
02:50 <@Arc> arg, btw, liveradio.indy isnt pulling up in my netscape
02:50 <@mtoups> everyone has said what they want to for the meeting then?
02:51 <@mtoups> thanks, brian
02:51 <@Arc> two weesk from now, same place same time?
02:51 <@earthman> Arc: works in lynx here
02:52 <@Arc> earthman yea im looking at graphics tho
02:52 <@earthman> Arc: http://liveradio.indymedia.org/streams/ithaca-hifi-ogg.pls
02:53 <@earthman> Arc: last url from the page, though it's asking me: audio/x-scpls  D)ownload, or C)ancel
02:56 < shane_afk> )
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02:58 <@Arc> yea the .pls file is a playlist
02:58 -!- humble is now known as humble_wtd
02:59 < humble_wtd> WTD - > walking the dog ;-)
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03:08 <@earthman> is the meeting officially over?
03:08 <@mtoups> i'd say so.  brian, you have logs?
03:10 <@Arc> yup, meeting over
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03:11 <@Arc> can we brainstorm for a bit more about site design for liveradio.indy?
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05:03 -!- Topic for #meeting: sysadmin/tech meeting Mar 30th 21:00 UTC, 1pm PST, 4pm EST here | http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Sysadmin/MeetingAgenda
05:03 -!- Topic set by brianski!~bks10@syr-24-59-96-217.twcny.rr.com [Sun Mar 30 23:01:52 2003]
05:03 [Users #meeting]
05:03 [@brianski] [@micah_afk] [ akb       ] [ kers     ] [ xmux] 
05:03 [@earthman] [@mtoups   ] [ ansti     ] [ mike     ] 
05:03 [@josh    ] [@Zapata   ] [ humble_wtd] [ shane_afk] 
05:03 -!- Irssi: #meeting: Total of 13 nicks [6 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 7 normal]
05:03 -!- mode/#meeting [+o ansti] by ChanServ
05:03 -!- Channel #meeting created Thu Mar 27 15:29:49 2003
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08:20 -!- humble_wtd is now known as humble_zzz
08:25 -!- xmux [irc@] has quit [Quit: goodnight]

Topic revision: r1 - 31 Mar 2003, ToniP
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